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The Israelis suffer regular bombings and shootings (perhaps at the rate of 1.5 per month?) that kills 2-300 of their citizens per year. I wouldn't dream to suggest that this is of little relevance, but the fact is other than this the Israelis enjoy every commodity and right that we think human rights deserve:
None of which is currently enjoyed by the Palestinians.
Make no mistake, the suffering of the Palestinians is a million times worse then the Israelis have ever experienced since the formation of Israel. I think it should be very clear who should make the first move towards peace.
Well then I believe you have far too little faith in the Palestinian people.
If they knew that Israel was being held to its concessions and if they knew that failure to stop the bombers would lead to aid being stopped then I believe they would stop the bombers..
Neither of us can say for sure so its a bit of a pointless argument...but im gonna stick to believing that the entire population of palestine would be able to stop a few hundred or even few thousand terrorists...They would find it impossible to operate amongst a hostile populace..This has been proven throughout history, guerilla forces need the co-operation of their host population or they fail.
Well based on those facts, i would say the palestinians..They are the ones suffering so terribly while the Israelis are sunning it up in their resorts...What reason do the Israelis have to make the first move? The palestinians are the ones dying by the truckload.
PS, i read something interesting about the death numbers today, ill dig it out when i get back from class.
Should have we all surrendered to big bad Hitler when he was blitzing Britain or told the Jewish race to all leave the known world for a desert island or alternatively form an orderly queue outside the nearest death camp?
Palestinian terrorists are not bombing restaurants for a laugh. The bombings are a direct response to this historical atrocity, and their only means of defence. I'm sure if they were allowed to have an army they'd like to fight the IDF 'fair and square'. But that's not the case. What else would you expect them to do, when the situation has gone on for 4 decades and the world can't be arsed to do anything about it?
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr030917_1_n.shtml
Get ready for the fireworks en masse folks! :eek:
and thats a good enough reason for the israelis to change is it? Thats reason enough for us to believe the israelis should change their ways..No offence but thats slightly naive..Why do we imprison criminals? Surely they should change their ways because they are naughty...People who do things wrong either dont care or dont acknowledge they are doing wrong and thus have no reason to change.
Im sorry, who suggested the palestinians surrender? I certainly didnt...They shouldnt surrender, they should keep on 'fighting' until they get their state and israel gets out of the settlements. However, there are other options than suicide bombs..Its obvious what a marvellous effect that particular tactic is having.
The world cant be arsed to do anything because people cannot bring themselves to side with suicide bombers..It really is that simple...If the Palestinians swapped their bombs with cameras, then they would have their state in the very near future.
Palestine needs America on her side and the only way for that to happen is for all suicide bombs on civilian targets to stop...Obviously theres a hell of a lot of ignorance out there but you cant always fight it, sometimes youve got to use it to your advantage. Mention Palestinian to most people in the US and the first thing that comes to mind is suicide bombers..Thats wrong but its what so many think and thats why nothing is being done.
Keep bombing = war of attrition, life in hell continues for palestinians.
Stop bombing = Israelis have to stop their tactics or be shown to be butchers to the world...Plain for all to see.
And soon to come we have this bright idea (link above) from the Sharon camp.
Looks like they've taken their cues right out of the Warsaw Ghetto Clearance Handbook this time!
PS, if this situation continues, i fear your nazi references might actually become true rather than being emotive rubbish.
It is shocking and horrible that it's the way it is, but the fact is that there is most progress and peace talks in the weeks following a particularly bloody period, when the international community feel compelled to apply some pressure.
Whenever things have been calm the progress has been nil, because the Israeli government is quite happy with the status quo and why give away all the land they've nicked out of goodwill?
I really wish that if Palestinians laid down their weapons and the Israelis carried out their usual 'routine' the world would be prompted to spring into action (funnily enough this is more or less what Michael Moore suggests in Stupid White Men, which I'm in the middle of reading). And if it was any other country in the world, I'm certain that it would have been stopped decades ago.
But we all know that Israel is the ultimate protégée of the US, and as such, untouchable. Of the resolutions that the US allows to be passed at the UN (it has vetoed countless ones) not a single one has been implemented. Israel has a formidable, fully equipped army courtesy of Uncle Sam, and even if some countries dared to defy the wrath of the US and put a task force together (and without UN authorisation, which other than Britain and America people tend to adhere to, that would be almost impossible) they would have to launch a full war to counter the strength of the IDF. And that nobody wants.
And of course, if you expect the US to ever raise a finger against Israel, you might as well expect O. Bin Laden to be the next New York Mayor.
In short, if the Palestinians laid down their weapons, equipped themselves with cameras and documented their own plight to the world, Israel would be allow to massacre every last man woman and child (if it chose to do so of course) without the international community willing or daring to do a damn thing about it.
The issue and situation over there has never been at this level before..Never has there been so much discussion, never so much media attention...At least not in my lifetime. Israel/Palestine is the issue in the world today.
Im confused..Are you saying that the suicide bombings are what keeps Israel from doing these things? Ive always thought of myself as terribly cynical about human nature but DAMN, you are a whole different type of pessimist
More moderate Jewish lobbies in the States have nowhere near the constituency nor muscle to force the necessary policy changes needed to address the status quo and overturn it.
BP> Sanctions against Iraq, their intent, and their results cannot be compared to that which has been suggested toward Israel.
In the case of Iraq, Saddam had viable and indigenous opposition ready to rise up and overthrow his regime given the proper international support. Instead, our leaders countered any proposals to end sanctions in order to focus solely upon shutting down Saddam (freezing of all assets, support for revolution, etc.) because the principle challengers to his regime were the Shia's with their desire for a religious state (and that is anathema to the our transparent corporate interests in the region).
The only people that the Iraqi sanctions hurt were the very people who might have overthrown him.
In the case of Israel, we have every bit a government intent on attacking its neighbours, which indeed DOES have stockpiles of illegal WMDs, and which is in breach of far more numerous UN resolution than was Saddam's regime.
So the question can equally be turned right back on you...
Iraqi invasion justified on the basis of oft repeated arguments over breach of UN resolutions, what then of the Israeli government?
Can't have it both ways!
Do they support Israel because..
a) the jewish lobby is so strong
b) the rest of the country doesnt support the palestinians and therefore isnt willing to speak out against israel.
The jewish lobby is irrelevent if the majority of US voters turn against Israel.
The difference is, idiot, that the sanctions on an already very poor and war-savaged Iraq cost the lives of 500,000 people.
Sanctions against Israel would not have such effect, but even if they were to be it would not come to that because Sharon is no Saddam.
Clear now?
No what I was trying to say is that passive resistance and hope for international intervention would be futile in this case.
So as far as the Palestinians are concerned they're being screwed over in the same way whether they lay still or fight back... so naturally they choose to fight back.
I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. I find it extremely difficult for US public opinion in the Middle East to change. Not while most of the media is biased to such extent and controlled by a handful of individuals.
Suffice to say that even today, and despite denials from Bush himself as well as from everyone else in the world, 70% of Americans actually believe Saddam was behind 9/11 :rolleyes: . Perceptions are very hard to change.
Interesting you should mention saddam and 9/11..Your numbers are actually wrong...Just a few months ago, 75% of americans believed saddam was connected, now its down to 60%.
Thats quite a big change....Perceptions are very hard to change?
Most of the voting public wouldnt and don't actively petition Washington for any change on anything, let alone the Middle East crisis. Those who push through agendas are precisely the powerful lobbies like AIPAC.
This is evidenced by little or no real action taken against Israeli policies regardless of which of the two major parties take the White House.
As for your optimism of what the West would do if Palestinians put up no resistance whatsoever, I think you are conveniently forgetting that the creation of the (secular) state of Israel in 1948 was precipitated by hardcore zionist militants who attacked and drove some 750,000 arab inhabitants of the land out of their homes and Britain eventually gave up and left them to do as wished, handing it to the UN and washing their hands of it.
http://www.al-bushra.org/temp/crus.html
Excerpt:
It's a monstrous injustice already. If Palestinians cease to defend themselves then you can bet that the West would merely look on as it did from the start.
We also thought it was acceptable to firebomb cities back then as well...Please dont try and make out we would do the same things today.
I cannot disagree strongly enough
Besides, could it be any worse than the current situation? Youve already explained that theres no chance of any change happening in regard to whitehouse policy..Just what do you suggest? Other than Israel changing their ways out of the kindness of their heart.
Indeed I have conceded to a cynical view of future prospects and am unlikely to change to that view so long as my government refuses to act as a truly impartial broker of the process.
The Ninth Crusade
Why Arabs hate Israel and America, why Americans support ethnic cleansing in Palestine, and how to end the American-Israeli conflict with the Arab world
A message for all who care for the truth..
Im sure it has good points but i cant physically read them
You are talking about the power of the AIPAC in the past or the present..In times when people dont support palestine over israel..The entire point im making is that peoples views will change and they will support palestine over israel.
As for public opinion, well that's an issue which has been covered in many topical threads on many issues and much of it comes right back to the programmed perception of affairs spun by the corporate media (which certainly in the US counts for the continued foremost influence for the majority. Until or unless media moguls who are either directly or indirectly associated to the powerful zionist lobby are divested of their overarching control over broadcast and print media, there is unlikely to be any sufficently broad forum for changing public perception.
As things stand, even criticising Israeli government policy is immediately branded as anti-Semite. No intelligent debate can exist in such an environment.
Ill ask you again, what to you suggest should be done? Its obvious to anyone that the suicide bombings are accomplishing nothing more than killing palestinians, directly and indirectly..
It all goes to painting a slanted mental image in the minds of the viewing public that Israeli attrocities are not planned or provoked but rather accidental whereas Palestinian retaliation is concerted and intentional. Fact is, the violence of both sides is intentional.
Once again, under these circumstances why should the Palestinians believe that a cessation of violence will galvanise the West into stoppong Israeli violence against them.
Or perhaps you'd like to go live in Gaza and watch as your family is slaughtered to satisfy Sharon's grasp for more land and control and set the example?
35 years of relentless suffering has taught them that acting like lambs will lead them to the slaughter all the quicker with not so much as a peep from the West until its too late to matter.
What would I do? If I had the power to do so, just what i suggested earlier, no fly zones, full naval embargo, cessation of all arms and financial aid to Israel unless they immediately ceased the occupation and the settlements and returned to the negotiating table.
You refuse to see my point, continuing to apply the situation today without taking into account what im suggesting...
and again its suggested i go to live out there...wtf :crazyeyes
I want peace out there, I can see the argument from both sides and I see that both sides need to be seen to be doing something...
anyway, enough.
Responding to the "wtf :crazyeyes" I merely intended to suggest that in order to gain a more comprehensive picture of the situation you, me or anyone would have to go live as they do, under the conditions imposed upon them by the continued occupation. I doubt any of us would at that point believe that passive resistance would achieve anything but our own deaths out of sight of Western eyes.
I realise you wish to speak about future hope, but Im sorry, there is no hope unless we focus on the current situation and expose the truth of what the media is failing to present.
peace
Funny, because it was a palestinian friend who got me hooked on the idea. Swapping bombs for video cameras, he certainly believes it will achieve more than his death.
He is now in the UK, having been here for a little over 4 months.