The importance of being genuine

Jellyelephant

Yes some things on this thread are unkind and upsetting actually 

Arianna

Jellyelephant said:

Yes some things on this thread are unkind and upsetting actually 

I don’t think any of us mean to be unkind, honestly. I’m sorry for any part I might have played in upsetting you - that wasn’t my intention and isn’t fair of me to have done, by any means, when we’re all just sharing opinions. If there’s a bit you’d like me to edit or anything, please let me know. x

GreenTea

Forget I said anything. Sorry

Past User

I think we're all pretty much on the same page anyway and we're just confusing each other with different wordings of the same explanation lol. I am wholeheartedly sorry if i have upset anyone or if i have unintentionally been unkind. That's not me at all, kindness if something i always try to offer. This is clearly something which has bothered us all so obvs needs looking into. 

I hope that you are okay @Jellyelephant , i really am so, so sorry if i have said something which you have found upsetting. 

  

Shaunie

I think it’s because some people have their opinion on this. Which is pretty valid and is allowed and then we get replies seeming like we are a bad person for the opinion. 

Connor

I just wanted to say before weighing in, i really do see people who care about the users in this space commenting here. Some of your opinions may be different, but to me it seems as though you all really care about protecting this space. Thankyou to everyone who has commented in this thread so far. With threads like these, we can have certain issues/gaps in guidelines highlighted and this is due to you all engaging with the thread

To reiterate what Mike said, it's okay to clarify and ask if some facts are hard to understand. When it comes to the questions being asked, however, it is best to do so in a gentle way. Infact, Arianna you put it nicely when you say:

Arianna said:

I think there’s a difference between asking people to clarify things so that you can support them (with the full story), and asking people to clarify with the intent of outing them if they’re lying.

Asking people to clarify things so that you can support them is definitely a great approach to this. It is difficult to do, however, this both aims to clear up what the person says and also avoids hostility as well as any accusations. If we always assume that someone is lying and for malicious reasons, then this can negatively influence how we speak to the person, even if we don't mean it to. As you mentioned Shaunie in a previous post:

Shaunie said:

I also ask a lot of questions when supporting people as that’s actually what I was taught in my peer support training as it gets the other person independent and gets them thinking for themselves and their own situation and you understand more and them leading on to other things and them thinking of ways to help themself.  rather you leading the convo. Empowerment and helping them to think on their own is mostly done by question.  And asking questions shows interest. Obviously not just question after question but asking question is just normal for me. And it doesn’t mean interrogation. 

Asking questions when supporting someone can be really awesome, as it does show you're interested in what the person is saying. Once more, it all comes back to how you ask the questions, and for what purpose

With this in mind i'd like to reference a specific point in the original post:

The Mix said:

If you think someone is being untruthful in a harmful way, don't confront them or call them out; come to us with your concerns. This keeps you out of any drama and also means the community stays a warm, supportive place. Newcomers or lurkers who see someone being questioned about their truthfulness may be less likely to open up for fear of being accused of the same thing, particularly if they want to share a similar story. It's important we encourage people to seek support as much as possible.

It's also worth remembering here that we never know for sure what's true. Everyone deserves a presumption of truthfulness, even - and especially - if their story is an unusual one.  

We do encourage everyone to come to us with concerns. This includes if you've asked a question in a thread to clarify. The more people that come to us and tell us about a situation, the more likely we are to notice it quickly. A point I think that may have also been overlooked is that it keeps you out of any drama or stress.

We definitely want to keep a supportive space for everyone here, and we hope with these guidelines set it'll help us achieve this goal

Edit: A lot has been said by the time I started this post! My fault for being a tad slow. It's definitely good to say that everyone's opinion is valid, it is true! Just for now, i'm going to pause the thread for a bit, just to give some time to absorb what has been said and to give some time to cool off

Arianna

No one’s a bad person for any opinion and none of them are wrong.

Shaunie

And If someone thinks I’m asking questions because I’m accusing them. - the reason for that would be because we would all have the same vibe of it not being true 😂. Otherwise wouldn’t think I’m accusing them. If I asked someone else for example. “Is your cat there to support” (because they previously said they had a cat then somewhere along the lines it randomly died Then it came back to life.) then we would all know it’s a stupid question but all so confused so why can’t ask because of the lies but any other time asking that question is completely fine as trying to help

GreenTea

[deleted post]

Mike

This thread was becoming circular and didn't feel constructive, so we've decided to close it for now. It's probably fair to say there was a bit of miscommunication and defensiveness happening here, which was leading to some frustration for everyone. And that's okay - this is a difficult discussion to have.

The points being made by @Arianna and @Liam were reasonable and civil, and no unkindness was shown in what they were saying. Respectfully challenging each other's perspectives is okay and a good thing for us to be doing, and it doesn't mean your feedback is being dismissed or picked apart.

Equally @Jellyelephant, @Shaunie and @Salix_alba_2019 this is an emotional topic and it's understandable to feel strongly about it. There is good feedback for us in what you're saying, like that we perhaps didn't approach the recent issues in the right way, and rest assured we have heard you and that will impact how we deal with these things in the future. You have our word on that.

It seems we all agree that truthfulness is important on a community like this, and not being authentic hurts the community and hurts individuals. That's true and that's why we wrote this post in the first place. Not only does it aim to help people understand the impact of that and why being honest is important; it also gives us a concrete guideline to point to when we're moderating.

The main point of contention in this discussion seems to be how we respond to that (i.e. whether it's okay to challenge someone on their truthfulness). If we want to protect the supportiveness of this community and maintain empathy for everyone who comes here, that must be left to the staff team. It's nobody's responsibility but ours to hold people accountable - that's why moderators exist. We do that in a supportive and emotionally-removed way (away from the main community) so you don't have to.

Once again, asking questions to clarify so you can support someone is okay. You can absolutely do that; it's a necessary part of supporting someone and having a productive conversation. Asking questions with the intention of tripping someone up or make them out to be a liar, on the other hand, is not okay, and neither are accusations that someone isn't telling the truth.

The thing underpinning all of this is empathy, and not leaping to judgement or assumption we're in no position to make. As well as there being legitimate support needs behind telling a false story, we also need to consider that someone genuinely might not have the presence of mind or cognitive function needed to understand the impact of what they're doing, or even forms of psychosis.

In all of these cases - even if someone is purely being manipulative - nothing is gained by accusing someone instead of bringing your thoughts to the staff team and letting us address that privately.

Conversations like this are difficult and emotional and, as @Connor said, it's really clear that you guys care a lot about this space - that's an awesome thing and it's why we have these discussions. This thread will remain closed for now but you can send any further thoughts to us via PM.