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Yes, I accept that point wholeheartedly. Well put.
My interest is largely professional, as I have been party to briefings and discussions at the EU ministerial level with members of the Rabin, Barak, Netanyahu and Sharon govts, have assisted in the creation of numerous position papers both in preparation and follow up of such meetings and read many others in the course of my career so far. I do however have many Palestinian friends who have suffered terrible losses to family and property from indiscriminate shelling, sniping and bulldozing raids in the territories.
I have also seen considerable pictoral evidence from aid workers as well as documented reference material from embassy officials both in Israel and Jordan which has shaped my views on the continued disingenuity of the US brokered peace process. Far too many vested interests in the status quo to expect breakthroughs without significant adaptation to the Likhud position.
As to all of Israel being behind the IDF, I think you of all people should know that there are Israelis who do not agree with continued occupation, nor of the maintenance of settlements, nor of the continued construction of the wall. Likhud is very much behind all of these.
Okay so you are saying the EU can not be trusted because two seperate banks that are based in the EU laundered money for Saddam and then giving Castro money. First of all that is a bit senseless thinking that the EU can not be trusted for the activity of two seperate banks. Then if we are getting on to the point of trusting people. Hell you can't trust Bush his family got its money off laundering NAZI money.
TzaHaL- Tza Hahagana LeIsrael, not Tzva Hahagana Lalikud.
As a whole Israel is the force behind the IDF, there'll always be people disagreeing. To therefore say that the IDF is a result of the Likud would be false.
I mean wasn't Barak the 15th Chief of General Staff? Wasn't Barak the head of Avoda?
The IDF consists of Avoda, Shinui, Merets, just as well as Likud followers. Has no relevance, they're there for one cause.
Curtail the Likhud agenda and its efforts to manipulate and derail the process through disingenuous negotiating, refusal to make substantive concessions on halting and dismantling all wrongful settlements (far more than the 15 you referred to previously) and withdraw the occupying forces from ALL Palestinian areas and the the actions of the IDF wouldnt be a factor any longer in the debate.
Unless of course the IDF is out of control and its generals are keeping such policies in spite of Sharon government's orders.
But I have been in a situation where people started to throw rocks. Soldiers were there, and I thank God for that. A stone is lethal. And frankly, had I a gun in my hand and my life depended on it, I wouldn't hesitate to use it cause people would think that it's barbaric and un-ethical.
Same goes for how they handle terrorists.
Can you enlighten me regarding the missiles launched against crowds?
Again, I'll say that I am not keen nor impressed over how the two of you casually ignore kidnapping and killings of Israelis, as if it never happened. When it is still, unfortunately, going strong.
And if you think that firing military assault rifles at rock throwing children is even remotely acceptable then youd better go back and redefine your definition of "terrorist".
As for the rock throwing, it is the view of civilised nations that attacks must not be repelled by disproportionate force. Every nation on earth has suffered from riots and disturbances but you don't see British, American, Spanish, French, Danish or German policemen shooting to kill to repel rioters throwing rocks or petrol bombs at them.
I am yet to hear about an Israeli soldier killed by a rock thrown by a child. Shooting back is simply barbaric and can only be described as murder. It is shocking that a nation that portrays itself as a civilised democracy indulges in practices characteristic of fascist dictatorships and brutal regimes.
Here's a disturbing report on the killing of children by the IDF. I don't see much self-defense here.
As for firing missiles into crowds, well I don't know what news you have been watching because this happens with alarming regularity. Here's an example.
Or do you think Israeli kids would do any different if the tables were reversed and Palestinian soldiers, funded by the US, were ever present in Tel Aviv neighbourhoods, bulldozing buildings down on top of people, raiding homes and shooting Israeli children indiscrimately?
The violence wont end until Sharon or whoever succeeds him finally adheres to the long ignored UN resolutions fully and withdraws the militant affrontary that simply gives perpetual cause for resistance and revenge.
Youre smart enough to see that I should hope.
Clandestine, a famous Golda Meir Quote... 'There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate the Jews'.
Think about it, how will there be peace when a mother says she won't be happy until one of her son's a shahid? When they're sent to camps learning how to produce bombs, and how to set them off? When they see rejoicing in Israeli death?
You can say a lot, but due to my mom being a teacher I've seen Israeli learning books. And never have I witnessed stories about how to kill Arabs. Or how to conugate the word martyr.
Exactly. How could parents encourage the death of their children. And the Arab World in general, as well as Muslims who view every other Muslim as a brother, never take responsibility for the violence created by their own culture and their government's inability to take responsibility for the condition of their people. Again, Saudi Arabia chooses to invest over $700 million in the US annually and then until recently, gives to charities that support the violence in the Middle East. How about building some factories in Palestine and giving people jobs. If people had hope, they wouldn't give a flying **** about where some line is being drawn.
I am concerned with the walls being built and stories of Hamas building more missles. It makes me feel there's no hope for peace.
And yet some atrocities seem to have no expiration date. How curious.
I haven't found a link (yet) but a few months ago there was another such incident. In this case an Apache fired a missile at a crowd outside a mosque because two or three gunmen "might have been hiding amongst them". Needless to say 11 people or so lost their lives, and oops! Not a gunman in sight.
And if you care to look back a few years you will see that there are many other incidents where crowds have been shot at, be from a combat helicopter, from an armoured vehicle or from soldiers on foot patrol.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12186214,00.html
And of course there is the time-honoured tradition of blowing up or bulldozing houses regardless of who might be inside.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2817305.stm
Perhaps you think 1 or 2 such attacks a year is a trivial issue. I don't.
No, the mosque wasn't preaching any such things. Not that it would justify killing worshippers.
This was yet another case of the IDF shooting at a crowd, not even knowing if the gunmen they were looking for were there (they weren't) but happy to murder more than 10 people and see if one of the dead happen to be a gunman.
Why don't they just go ahead and use a small nuke on the refugee camps? Tens of thousands would be killed but they would sure get 40 or 50 militants. Don't you agree pnj?
Then it was wrong to attack it.
Well that argument goes both ways little man and those like you who support our own country's misguided agenda of war and bombardment are the ones inviting further violence against us in the future.
Go a bit back, and see how Egypt were ready to go into war, if someone would fund them.
You don't even know how many attempted attcks get stopped by the Israeli forces on a daily basis.
Not mentioned in the media, or in open circles in order not to scare the population.
Then again, that was 1948, this is now. The eternal "we're so persecuted" or "everyone hates us" moan of the zionists has worn thin and is a pathetic excuse for doing much the same thing to the Palestinians that was suffered by Jews themselves 50 odd years ago.
It was attrocious in WWII and its no less attrocious now whether committed in part or in total by the Israeli government or any other government.
The recent history of disingenuous negotiating and railroaded peace settlements due to intractable expansionist agendas of successive Israeli governments is the issue, not the sordid history of the formation of the modern state of Israel.
Funny that the people who stayed in their houses in 1948, became Israeli citizens.
Palestinians suffer how the Jews did? Jews were banned from going to the cinema, sports fields, cafés etc.
Fucking explain me how Palestinians are seen in malls, swimming pools, amusement parks etc. when going through the same treatments as the Jews did?
Now remember that Israelis do not dare to set a foot in Palestinian amusement facilities etc.
You should not dare to tell me that Israelis/Jews don't face abuse anymore. I'll prove you wrong before you'll have the time to write about nazi methods of the zionists, and about the peaceful Arafat.
I really would advice you to travel to the area you're so fond criticising, and get some reality into your pretentious self-loving head.
I did not suggest that Jews do not suffer persecution, I contended rather that the cry that is raised everytime any criticism comes the way of the zionists is one of "anti-semitism" or "we're so persecuted", as if that gives carte balnche to avoid any responsibility for their actions or blanket immunity from any rebuke for misdeeds.
It just doesnt work like that Jacq.
And whether you choose to see it or willfully turn a blind eye, building a wall around entire territories and sealing people into virtual prisons of zero economic opportunity and then denying any movement is little more than the conditions suffered by the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Add in the indiscriminate IDF sniping, rocket attacks, and housing demolitions and youve got to some extent the same treatment being perpetrated on them as was suffered by your forbears in WWII. In its totality no of course not, that would raise an immediate global outcry and isolate Israel from everyone.
Far easier to incrementally cut off and destroy the population though economic deprivation and random killings all dressed up in excuses about "security".
Perhaps when you demonstrate some capacity to hold your own government to account you can expect others to accommodate your perspective more often. Until then you appear to simply applaud the madness of right wing oppression a bit too much.
In which case the above rant is irrelevant to me, for I have not spoken of past or present suffering by the Jewish people, and I do not care to make comparisons to see which people win the sympathy contest.
Funny how when you run out of arguments you throw rants like the above instead of facing the discussion at hand. You wanted links to supposed human rights abuses and the targeting of civilians? I've supplied plenty. But instead of facing up to the reality of the murderous ways of the Israeli government, here we go again derailing the issue.
You started the thread asking what we thought of the peace process chances. Well I have told you: as it stands it doesn't stand much of a chance. The Palestinians have got as rotten a deal as it could be; the Apartheid Wall continues to be built despite repeated pleas from every one including Sharon's bestiest friend G. W. Dubya. The settlements continue to exist and in many cases to expand. The refugees are still denied return. The stolen land, not only from the Palestinians but from the Lebanese and the Syrians continues to be in Israeli hands. And the IDF continues its regular and mostly unreported catalogue of abuses and unprovoked killings.
Perhaps the Palestinians have grown tired of 4 decades of brutal oppression and humiliation, and are prepared to accept whatever leftovers of a nation remain in their hands. But don't be surprised if the ceasefire ends soon and hostilities begin again. I could not blame anyone for rejecting this shambles of a peace agreement.
Of course there is another way. That everyone, from foreign heads of state to the people of Israel, demand Sharon and his government face up to their obligations and make some real concessions to ensure a fair deal for everyone and lasting peace. But it seems that most who can do something about it are happy to let him carry on his practices undisturbed, and to laugh in the face of international law, Human Rights conventions and UN resolutions.
The Oslo agreemeant gave them some opportunities, which they decided to throw away, so they could go on with their fuckities.
Notwithstanding this, the actual amounts provided to the Palestinians, given their virtual destitution to begin with, is barely enough to provide for the very basics of survival when viewed on a per capita basis and factoring in all the things the Israelis might take for granted such as educational facilities, hospitals, basic utilities (lets not even get into the question of access to water itself which has largely been diverted for Israeli settlers away from Palestinian towns around them) and other such staples of relatively comfortable and progressive living.
As for Oslo, youd best go back and recall that both with regard to Oslo and the Camp David 2000 accords, the Palestinians agreed with the provisions, however the Israeli side railroaded these agreements by continuing to add on greater and greater land concessions from the Palestinian side until they made the whole situation pointless. In this way just as they are doing again today, they push the process until it fails and then loudly proclaim on the media that the failure is the fault of the Palestinians.
You continue to refuse to see the truth just as your government does and thus in answer to the original question asked, this process will be no less a sham than any preceeding attempt.
The Danish government is thank God supportive of Israel
Funny, you mention hospital facilities. In my stay I got taken to hospital, and I do not lie when I tell that everyone of the patients except from two (me and another lady) were arabs.
Either way, this discussion is going nowhere. You asked me to visit the places in question. I have. I suggest you do the same.
As to the hosptial you went to, I have little doubt that fine hospitals exist, but those would be in Israel not the Palestinian territories and thus not relevant to the funds which you referred to as being squandered by Palestinians.
For Arabs living as Israeli citizens all well and good, but that is not pivotal to resolution of the conflict for those who live in the occupied territories imprisoned by the attrocious wall and without credible economic opportunity.