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bloody sunday

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
did anyone else see the ITV programme yesterday about bloody sunday?

having known it happened but not known exactly what happened, the dramatisation of bloody sunday really opened my eyes and made me realise how fucked up and stupid and arrogant the british army have been for centuries - ireland, africa, india etc.

it makes me sick to think of the number of innocent people the british army have killed - to preserve our 'law and order' that we imposed on people.

true - it was a dramatsation, and true it seemed to come from a slightly irish perspective - but for some reason i can quite believe that the events of that sunday were portrayed just as they happened.

frag
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah I watched it, it was horrible to watch (I know that sounds nasty). Must have been about twenty (?) minutes of running around and shooting. Different to usual "film violence" cos you know it actually happened.

    I was at my nans when a trailer came on for that programme and she said "they don't show a programme showing all the victims of the IRA"...

    I wasn't even alive then and I don't really know what all the troubles are about and no one ever explains it.

    There is another post in entertainment about this, I don't know if you can class it as "entertainment" as I personally didn't enjoy watching it. I suppose the purpose of it was to educate people, but how do you know how much of it is true?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ah, but don't you think that with the recent evidence that the paratroopers were shot at first by snipers in the flats should make you think about why they went mad??? Even pretty decent people go pyscho when they don't know who is shooting at them!

    The only decent part of that whole shitty film was when James Nesbitt got shot and the twat with the face mask was gunned down for shooting at the troops.
    Didn't bother watching it after that, and I doubt anyone else in England did either.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by fraggle:
    <STRONG>

    true - it was a dramatsation, and true it seemed to come from a slightly irish perspective - but for some reason i can quite believe that the events of that sunday were portrayed just as they happened.

    frag</STRONG>


    The film was completely anti-british, and they weren't the "exact" events anyway! We know that because recent evidence has proven old ideas about the event wrong.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the brits got hell for tryin to keep the peace over here. They were tryin to keep the peace at a march and were attacked for doin that. Thats hardly fair now is it. And if you were shot at i think you would defend yourself
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    OK, here is a copy of my post in Entertainment, I dont mean to disagree with beatnusoon & Whowhere as they're great guys, and no one knows better than me the pain the IRA/Sinn Fein cause, and the horrors of living as a "legitimate target" under constant threat from snipers, car bombs and ambush. However:

    I dont normally watch things like this, they upset me and I have yet to see anything that's not biased in some way. I have particular difficulty in things protrayed from Sinn Fein/IRA point of view because of the way I was brought up, and what my family have suffered. This is because it brings out a long buried streak in me that I hate, bigotry. After fighting so long to be something different, to stand for something different, I find it hard to deal with the fact that hatred, mistrust and bigotry is inside me, same as anyone else who grew up here. You are kidding yourself if you think it isn't there, better to admit it and deal with it, but I wish it wasn't there at all.

    Anyway, I watched it, and cried. I agree that in all probability there were IRA guns there and maybe they did fire on the soldiers…its what they do. But dear god, nothing, and I mean nothing should have lead to firing on a crowd. Some of those ppl were just holding a peaceful protest for civil rights… if you had been a Catholic at that time, especially in Derry, you would have been protesting too. Regardless of the political views I hold, the slaughter of ppl is something I have seen too much of, and I will never think it a good thing.

    It was an awful day, it should never have happened… it was scary and confusing and those soldiers lived under constant threat from snipers I know…but soldiers should be trained to deal with those kinds of situations. It’s their job to keep a cool head, obey orders and not be trigger-happy. What was done that day was like history repeating itself. It only served to win more support for violence and more recruits into the IRA… all those ppl with the anger and hate bread out of that day… and then the repercussions of their actions after that.

    The problems here are usually one side blaming the other while turning a blind eye to the same actions on their own side. Violence was to blame that day, on both sides, and if the situation had been handled better, if Stormount had of opened its eyes and used even a tiny bit of foresight, none of it would have happened. Watching the same horror over and over again makes me sick… will no one ever learn? I choose not to give in to it, the bigoted streak in me will never win because I wont let it.

    I don't care what concessions or price has to be paid for peace, it will be worth it.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel sick watching this film..Its the single most disgusting piece of propaganda ive ever seen...Goebbels himself couldnt have done a better job. As Whowhere said, an IRA member admitted last weekend that there were IRA gunmen shooting from within the crowd. The film makers decided to ignore this and release the film anyway.

    According to this film, our soldiers are blood thirsty maniacs. Paras boasting about how many civilians they killed, Paras boasting that they shot people crawling on the floor. Soldiers executing wounded civilians by shooting in the back of head. Soldiers shooting people holding up white flags..

    I cant even begin to express how annoyed I am right now. How they could release this blatently biased POS during such an important time is quite beyond me.

    I have a feeling theres going to be a lot of complaints over this one and that Nesbit scum has ruined his career.

    You people who believe what you just saw in that dramatisation are very naive. There is an ongoing enquiry to work out how things went on that day. None of us were there and so we dont know what happened. We have two opposing viewpoints, one from the paras and one from the extremely anti-British republican camp. We are spending 200 million pounds on this enquiry and its totally fucking irresponsible to release such a biased film such as this at this time.

    I just think they should have made the film a few years back if they really wanted to. They have picked the single most volatile time possible to release such a film. Right in the middle of the enquiry..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, one thing I do know is that british soldiers do not act alone...if their officer(s) did not order it they would do nothing.

    My sympathy for the IRA is not because of any hate for the british...but rather a bit of my own 'remembered' history of how we were disarmed, deported, and generally disposessed because we would not change our religion.

    The ol pirate kingdom once depended upon Ireland for cheap labour and farm produce...and when they became overpopulated there was the potato famin...and the wholesale deportation of people to US and elsewhere...even as food was being taken out of Ireland to england...etc.

    Hate doesn't bother me...same emotional energy as love...indifference would concern us all greatly because then whole elements of our 'societ' die.

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Weve had many arguments about the IRA in our time Diesel and we never agree on anything <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">

    You will change your views soon enough..When Aztlan start lobbying for the return of Texas to messico. When they start letting off nail bombs up north.

    Again, times have changed. Its no longer the 17th/18th century. The Britain of today is not the Britain of yesteryear.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with Baldog,

    Diesel nothing you said in your post had any relevance that I could see, grudges destroy lives believe me.

    The true battle is within ourselves to let go the hatred and build for the future rather than forcing our children to react the past over and over. I dont care how wishy washy that sounds, it feels worth believing in to me.

    The soldiers should have known better. Even common sense dictates you dont fire on a crowd of protesters at a civil rights rally. Soldiers are trained to deal with difficult situations and protect above all...not retaliate without mercy or distinction. We should expect better from our armed forces than than we expect from terrorists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i agree with kaz again but it was not the civil rights ones really cuz it was at a turn off were youths turned the wrong way and attacked the armed forces that the trouble happened obviously the army was wrong to do what it did. But do you think the IRA cared who was getting shot the just wanted to kill british troops regardless and when you have gun men shooting out of the crowd what do you do. If you were a soldier and one minute your standing there and the next someone is shooting out of the crowd at you your first reaction is to take him out.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Soldiers don't fire on civilians unless ordered to...and as tight fisted as the english have always been with ammunition it had to have been contrived.

    Balddog, all emotion aside. It is my subjective viewpoint that the IRA will win and the protistants will either get into agreement with being part of Ireland or leave...in either case that fight will be over.

    Such brave men defending the 'true' faith from school girls, contemptable, with nail bombs and gunfire...well they can make for themselves banners and 'hero' medals marking their resistance to those who stand alone...or just leave and go on the dole in London or some other multiculturalist paradise in the ol pirate kingdom.

    British soldiers DON'T shoot anything unless ordered to do so...their conduct is a direct reflection of the intent of government on the subjects...! And that is the only simple fact that need be acknowledge before attempting a peacful solution.

    Balddog, how can you stand it over there? (just kidding)

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Balddog, all emotion aside. It is my subjective viewpoint that the IRA will win and the protistants will either get into agreement with being part of Ireland or leave...in either case that fight will be over.

    The IRA will win what exactly? Theyve been at peace for 5 years. Their Politicians just set up offices in Westminister and are being paid by Her Majesties government.

    There is a third possibility which you seem to have missed Diesel. NI joins the Republic of Ireland through democratic process when the Catholics outnumber the Protestants in a few years....You know as well as me that people dont like change. What makes you think the fight will be over? It wont be over by a long shot, it will merely move..There will be Loyalist bombs going off in Southern Irish shopping centres on a saturday afternoon.

    You cannot force people to live under a system they despise. We have been shown that by the IRA and the IRA will be shown that when they try to subjugate the North.

    They loyalists aint gonna come across to England with their tails behind their legs. They will fight like demons for their homes, just like the IRA did.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>Soldiers don't fire on civilians unless ordered to...and as tight fisted as the english have always been with ammunition it had to have been contrived.
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


    Depends what country or race the civilians are from doesn't it?
    Apply your logic to the Nazis. A lot of German soldiers shot Jews for fun, they didn't need to be ordered.

    You also have to take into consideration, if the gunmen are standing in a crowd of people shooting at soldiers, then aren't the gunmen deliberately putting civilians at risk in order to meet their ends? And how exactly do you stop a gunman with a rifle, standing in a crowd from shooting at you? Ask him?
    "scuse me mate, can you stop shooting so we can arrest you?". Doesn't work like that, and like you and Thanatos keep telling us, soldiers have to make decisions on their feet or doesn't that apply anymore? They didn't recieve orders to kill civilians, they recieved orders to stop the terrorists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>
    British soldiers DON'T shoot anything unless ordered to do so...their conduct is a direct reflection of the intent of government on the subjects...! And that is the only simple fact that need be acknowledge before attempting a peacful solution.

    </STRONG>


    I'm sorry, when did soldiers suddenly become infalible? They've never shot anyone by mistake? riiiight. They're human beings like the rest of us, they are subject to the same laws and principles. And they are trained to deal with these kinds of situations so they should be subject to the strictest standards. Whether they were fired on or not, they should not have fired rounds into a crowd.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Whether they were fired on or not, they should not have fired rounds into a crowd.

    I suspect that they didnt just fire rounds into the crowd. I would suspect they were firing at the shooters who were hiding in the crowd. I say suspect because none of us were there so we cant be sure what happened.

    I can assure you that if the Paras had been firing wildly into the crowd then a lot more than 13 people would have died.

    Can I ask what you would suggest they did instead? They were being shot at by several gunmen(admitted by IRA) from within the crowd. Their lives were in immediate danger. What should they have done?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Mmmmmm...I think we all need to remember here that this dramatisation was based on eyewitness reports at the scene and that included the version of events given by soldiers at the scene.
    there was one very important witness in the dramatisation and that was the geordie soldier who openly said to other soldiers that he hadn't seen anyone shoot and that the other soldiers had opened fire on people without provocation. He than changed his story to fit that of the rest of the regiment.
    There was also a fair bit of sympathy toward the commanding officer in the piece so I don't think it's fair to say it's one sided.
    What it did show was that this was a march organised by the Civil rights movement against internment and it was hijacked by both militants and the British army. Caught in the crossfire were several (13 jilled 14 injured) innocent people.

    The Army fired something like 103 rounds of live ammunition which really is excessive force against a largely unarmed crowd.
    Remember - aren't snipers meant to be accurate shooters? if so why did they kill so many and injur so many others?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny,

    Yes based on the testimoney of vehemently anti-British civil rights marchers. Their 'word' means nothing because they are so obviously biased.

    Can you explain to me how, if he changed his story afterwards, the film makers knew what that Geordie soldier said in the back of the truck? If he changed history to fit the story then how does anyone know? Nobody else was there but the soldiers involved.

    Nothing of that day has yet been established as fact, other than the deaths of 13 people. The very fact that there is currently a £200 million pound enquiry into the day proves that its not cut and dry.

    103 rounds excessive force? Im sorry, were you there byny? Do you know how many gunmen were in the crowd?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps give this link a try? It goes through all the so called 'New evidence' and concludes that this is not NEW but evidence that was dismissed or not used in the tribunal. Yes Some of those people may have been biased but is it not the case that a regiment who have just fired 103 bullets at a crowd, most of whom were running away might also be keen to give a 'biased' view which takes away responsibility from the army? http://www.irlgov.ie/taoiseach/bsundayreport/default.htm

    "A major body of evidence which directly contradicted the evidence presented by the implicated soldiers (on which Lord Widgery based his findings) was effectively ignored."

    And can I add I'm not an IRA supporter but I think that there is a great deal of evidence that suggests that the army was way out of control on that day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>byny,


    Can you explain to me how, if he changed his story afterwards, the film makers knew what that Geordie soldier said in the back of the truck? If he changed history to fit the story then how does anyone know? Nobody else was there but the soldiers involved.

    103 rounds excessive force? Im sorry, were you there byny? Do you know how many gunmen were in the crowd?</STRONG>

    Sorry - didn't reply to these questions. I'm assuming that the soldier came forward at a later stage. Wasn't therre some concern later when stories were changed? I don't know

    As for your second point - no I wasn't there b(I was in Donegal at the time) but I have read some of the Widgery report and it states that some of the return fire "had bordered on the reckless" he also found that none of the killed or wounded was ever proved to have been shot while handling firearms or bombs.
    The Londonderry coroner Huber O'Neill said
    "it strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking. They were shooting innocent people"
    People on the march, Civil rights marchers and NICRA leaders (Northern Ireland civil rights Association), all said that durimg the shooting the Army was not fired at. Local Priests protested that those shot were unarmed, that many were running away fro the troops when they were hit, that the army failed to stop shooting when white hankerchiefs were waved, and that the priests themselves were prevented from assisting the dead and dying ....The pig in the middle The Army in Northern Ireland 1969 - 1984 by Desmonf Hamill Published by Methuen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes Some of those people may have been biased but is it not the case that a regiment who have just fired 103 bullets at a crowd, most of whom were running away might also be keen to give a 'biased' view which takes away responsibility from the army?

    Yes, which is the reason why I dont just take either sides word for it and look at the evidence and those impartial witnesses(the press)
    Sorry - didn't reply to these questions. I'm assuming that the soldier came forward at a later stage. Wasn't therre some concern later when stories were changed? I don't know

    Nobody ever does..Ive never seen a source for this baseless rumour.

    The shooting may have been reckless but that doesnt make the paras bloodthristy loonies. They were fired on by IRA gunmen from within the crowd. What were they to do but fire back at the gunmen?
    he also found that none of the killed or wounded was ever proved to have been shot while handling firearms or bombs.

    It was also never proven that they werent. The enquiry found that several of the deceased had been in contact with guns before their death. Is it not conveivable that in a crowd of thousands, someone might have picked up the gun or bomb if it fell?

    Im not trying to justify anything here..I dont know exactly what happened that day and I doubt anyone who wasnt there will ever know..What I do know is that it was stupid to release such an emotive film right in the middle of an enquiry.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ooh several points here, amazing how much can be written so quickly...

    Firstly, I also believe that there were IRA guns there and that these were removed as quickly as possible. This gave the IRA its best ever recruitment video - any idea how many new members came forward after Bloody Sunday

    Secondly, regardless of how many inquiries we have we will NEVER get the truth, just several different versions of event.

    and the third is really just for Balddog, no matter how laudable your outrage at this film (and believe me I agree with you) I feel that I must remind you of your previous comments in another thread about filmmakers rewriting history - I believe that you felt that it was acceptable...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Films are films..They make no bones about admitting they are fictional.

    The film last night passed itself off as a documentary. It was filmed in a documentary style and it was claimed to be accurate to the events.

    Theres a pretty big difference.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you'll find that they used the standard get out clause - 'based on real events, and eye witness testmiony' - which you were defending a few weeks ago.
    <STRONG>Originally posted by Balddog
    If someone who goes to see a film called U571 about the capture of a submarine then they are fucking stupid if they dont know the real story. Just another symptom of the dumbing down of the UK I spose.
    </STRONG>

    Put Bloody Sunday and its theme inplace of U571 and I think you get my point.

    I understand your outrage, I sat there chunting myself, and I suspect that like me you had read the previews and knew it would be controversial, biased and complete bull.

    At the end of the day I got just what I expected and so did you.

    To be honest, I expect little else from our liberally biased broadcast media these days.

    What do you think the chances are of 'documentary' based on Warrington, Omagh, Harrods, Blues and Royals, Brighton (from Tebbits perspectice), Enniskillen etc etc etc
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Maybe if the IRA commander, oops sorry I mean the MP, Martin McGuiness had not fired the first shot at the army the rest would not of happened.

    McGuiness got what he wanted and he wasn't bothered then, who died and he isn't bothered now except for the propagander value it gave the murdering scum SinnFien/IRA.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>Again, times have changed. Its no longer the 17th/18th century. The Britain of today is not the Britain of yesteryear.</STRONG>


    Then again, it is the Britain of the 20th Century that is responsible for a great deal of the attrocities of that century. Maybe when you begin to recognise that rather than making excuses or claims of not being the same Britain that you might actually begin to make changes.

    Some people on this board like to attack the Americans. But the Americans have had their inquiry into Kent State. They've recognised their flaws and admitted their guilt. The Americans tried their guilty for Mei Lei, impeached their President for lying, tried soldiers for murder....

    Britain? Britain is busy rewriting history. Objecting to films like the Patriot and Saving Private Ryan. Pretending that actions they should be ashamed of didn't happen.

    Regardless of if there were snipers, those soldiers should not have fired into a crowd of civilians. And Balddog, what are you suggesting? That there were 103 snipers?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean_K,

    We have had inquiries on the shooting this is the 3rd (I think).

    This one is being held to pander to the SinnFien/IRA. It's to late for the truth to come out.

    103rds fired thats not 103 people shot at. Each time a sniper fired more than 1 soldier would have fired back and probably with more than 1 rd.

    I do not believe that all that were shot were innocent, some were. I believe that the IRA fired first and knew exactly what they were doing. If you help an IRA sniper by crowding round him to hide him and then get shot yourself by return fire tough shit.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Sean_K:
    <STRONG>


    Then again, it is the Britain of the 20th Century that is responsible for a great deal of the attrocities of that century</STRONG>


    Are you really so stupid? How exactly is this possible? Are you suggesting that time travel is a possibility?
    Britain of the 20th century is in no way responsible for the actions of people in the 17th/18th century, in the same way that Germans are not responsible for the actions of Hitler.
    You then mention 103 snipers?? Lets put that into perspective shall we. In Vietnam on both sides over 1 million rounds were fired for each confirmed kill. Surely by your logic there must have been a few billion vietnamese to shoot at? But then of course you don't use logic, you use bias and hearsay in order to form your opinions.
    Did it not occur to you that even the best trained soldier might panic if shot at by an unseen enemy? And if all the civilians DUCKED instead of running around, the IRA gunmen would have been left standing up thinking "oh shit". Who knows, all I can tell you is that everyone is human and like Thanatos says "tough men have to be able to make tough decisions".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by WillyPete:
    <STRONG>Sean_K,

    103rds fired thats not 103 people shot at. Each time a sniper fired more than 1 soldier would have fired back and probably with more than 1 rd.

    I do not believe that all that were shot were innocent, some were. I believe that the IRA fired first and knew exactly what they were doing. If you help an IRA sniper by crowding round him to hide him and then get shot yourself by return fire tough shit.</STRONG>

    Firstly - not one soldier was injured, or killed. Surely if there were that many snipers taking the first shots then there would have been at least one injury in the army? There were none.

    Secondly ther is no evidence to suggest the crowd "crowded round" the so called IRA members in the crowd.

    It would be interesting to see the original news footage/interviews/reactions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the ira admitted being there! the most fenian film i have ever seen even admitted the ira were there! Do you think they were there to support civil rights if you do you are one stupid mother fuck. And do you honestly think they cared who got shot as long as they didn't
    wake up to the real world dumb fuck
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny, I am sorry the IRA scum were such bad shots and didn't manage to kill any soldiers
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">


    beatnusoon, you pay 10 dollar, you cheap charlie you numbah 10 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
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