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You pay 20 dollar me love you beaucoup time, you numbah 1, no cheap charlie, you buy me saigon tea.
This enquiry is just moron blair giving in to the IRA again and again. What's happened to the war against terrorism ???? he should apply the same force against the IRA as he did in Afghanistan.
Maybe you should learn to understand the use of the word "that". It is a referral, in this case to an earlier point in the sentence. As in "Britain of the 20th century is responsible for a great number of attrocities in the 20th century".
As for the German people and Hitler, I suggest you read the works of John Locke.
<STRONG>
So you are claiming that Bloody Sunday was the same as a guerilla war in a country that is jungle, hills and floodlands? Or that the "Rules of Engagement" for a civilian demonstration are the same as those of a war?
<STRONG>
Unlike you? Who can't figure out the difference between a war and a massacre?
<STRONG>
And how much experience do you have with well-trained soldiers? Or with bullets flying around your head?
<STRONG>
So, the soldiers are allowed to panic, but the civilians aren't?
Tough men not only have to make tough decisions, they have to live with them and their consequences. The German soldiers who did the same thing in Warsaw (fired into a crowd from which they had been fired at from) were tried and convicted as war-criminals.
Diesel was making his argument for the IRA based on the experiences of his ancestors in the F&I wars..Do you deny that the British have evolved a little from those times?
Its not an excuse, its a fact. Would we pay mercenaries to bring back the scalps of the IRA families today?
Again, the world has changed in just 50 years. Would we have traumatised soldiers lined up and shot today, as we did in WW1? Would we launch 2000 bombers to bomb major cities and intentionally cause firestorms as we did in WW2? Of course not.
Whether you admit it or not Sean, we have changed, as has every other nation on earth. Most people move with the times, morality evolves.
I also take issue with your jibe that the British is responsible for a 'great deal' of atrocities of the 20th. What do you mean by a great deal? Most? Half? Even through your crap tainted view of the British surely you can see that we are far from the worst people in history.
*sighs*
Read it again, I said nothing of the sort.
The Paras fired many warning shots over the heads of the crowd. Real life shooting isnt how its shown on TV. Even the Paras arent going to get a 1 bullet = 1 kill ratio while coming under fire in such a hostile situation.
Yeah well, a black guy would get a fairer trial from a jury filled with KKK members.
[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
Widgery concluded after Bloody Sunday that of the thirteen only one had nail bombs in his possession, wnd even then there was a possibility that they might have been planted after he was dead.
Link to your first statement please.
It's a well known fact that all soldiers carry nail bombs with them just for those circumstances <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I'll make allowances you're welsh.
Nobody has ever said that all the 13 people killed were gunmen or bombmen. They may well have simply been in the way. It was a march of 10,000 people, there was a lot of movement. Interesting to note that there was forensic evidence found on several of the bodies which proved that they had been in contact with guns or bombs before their death.
Cant quite work out why you are point out Harry Thornton. The numbers killed by the security forces pales in comparison with those killed by the Republicans. I can list a thousand stories just as nasty sounding as that one.
Am I - First I knew about it!!!!!
I live in Wales does that mean I'm Welsh?
Point is that neither side comes out of this well, but as usual the British Govt did their best to cover up the truth and is now left with a mess. Has the MoD ever been truthful - just look at the Mull of Kintyre crash, or Gulf War Syndrome...?
Only when we have inquiries into the activities of McGuinness and Adams and they actually admit what events they played a part in can we expect the Brits to be more open, the terrorists want the Paras hung out to dry, yet the hide their own actvities...
Todays wonderful irony is that the terrorists can now park in the car park used by Airey Neave...
second point people running away pose little threat to blokes with big fuck off guns.
third point - why the hell has this degenerated into a slanging match? or does the politics forum always do this? surely the point of a politics forum is to present your opinions, not to take imature swipes at where people live. It would appear that there are some serious bigots in this forum who hate the welsh, the irish and probably the americans.
grow up.
Do you really think that the most professional troopsin the British Army, would do that to people.
It was so blatent that the propgramme was written as propoganda! I know a para who was there and he says it was all bollocks and i'm disappointeed that anyone took that crap seriously. You sould all be ashamed of yourselves!
No offence, but the Para would say that...he aint gonna admit they fucked up, is he? Yeah, they more than likely were sniped at from the crowd, but the British Army took it on themselves to fire at the crowd without any thought as to who they would hit. The republicans come out of it badly, but the British Army come out of it far worse.
Yes, the programme was propaganda, but that doesnt make it false. There is two sides to every story, but the facts seem to show the Republican side far more than the British side. Planting things on the dead, and slandering the dead (like at Hillsbrough) doesnt make killing them in cold blood ok. And being sniped at doesnt make shooting at people carrying white flags ok either.
So who saw the programme lastnight on BBC2 called 'Remember Bloody Sunday' which was made in 1992?
Lets look at a few questions....
Do we believe that all 13 people killed and 14 (some say 15) injured were carrying guns/nailbombs or were IRA members?
Do we believe that other people removed all the weapons from the bodies before officials/hospitals got to inspect the bodies?
This programme lastnight used real footage and photographs from the day and was pretty horrific. There was also evidence (Photographic) of at least one civilian carrying a gun.
However it also threw up an interesting question.
As shown in the dramatisation earlier this week there was one man who was removed from the scene in the back of a car as other protesters attempted to take him to hospital. On the way they were stopped and the car taken off them. Much later the Army claimed that while inspecting the body (which had been taken to barracks in the car) they found nail bombs in his pockets.
However...There was witness testimony that before attempting to take the body to hospital it was taken to a house where they tried to revive and identify him.
Now.. If there was a huge cospiracy among the protesters, priests, doctors and politicians to remove weapons from the bodies of those shot surely they would have done so at this point before taking him in the car to hospital? Surely they would not have taken a body loaded with nailbombs through a barricade where soldiers were likely to stop them. If he did have nail bombs on him at the point he was shot and we agree with the second question
"Do we believe that other people removed all the weapons from the bodies before officials/hospitals got to inspect the bodies?"
then how did those nail bombs get on him?
The programme lastnigh was really good as there were interviews with soldiers and the head bloke on the day (Major, Colonel?)
Also an interview with a bloke who'd been there that day and joined the IRA as a result - his friend had been shot.
There was also testimony from one soldier who said that when he discovered one of his men had shot 2 more rounds than he'd been issued he'd been very concerned and that 'knowing the soldier as he did' he believed he had been out of control.
There was also testimony from a priest saying that he saw people being shot and could see quite plainly that they were not carrying guns nor nail bombs when they were shot.
One major thing that came out inthe programme from all concerned was the view that if the Army had not done what they did then the IRA would not have had so many willing volunteers and done so much damage in the years to follow.
I guess, though, that the gunman who fired a shot at the soldiers 10 minutes before the whole thing kicked off should also feel guilty for the part he played in kicking the whole thing off.
No, of course not. They might simply have been people in the way. People were running all over the place on the day, mass panic. I wouldnt be suprised if most of those shot were hit by mistake. Or mistaken for those with guns.
Have you seen the statement from Martin McGuiness byny? He has confirmed that there were eight armed gunmen in the area and there were fifty IRA members within the crowds. He also stated that there were only 10 guns within the area at the time which suggests to me that they would have picked them up if dropped. They were bloody valuable to the IRA at the time.
As to the nailbomb in the pocket thing..Well the IRA have also confirmed that they had setup cars and escape routes for their members to avoid being caught after the riots.
There was no huge conspiracy, merely IRA members and sympathisers in the crowds which would have picked up the weapons.
They also didnt know the barricade was there, they came upon it unexpectedly. To be honest I dont know what happened, the army or police may well have planted the nailbomb on the kid, I dont know, I wasnt there.
Yeah and if the IRA werent going to be there then the march would not have been banned and the Paras would not have been brought in...They were only there because the security services knew the IRA were going to be operating within the crowd. They were right by the admission of Martin McGuiness.
I didnt see last nights programme.
sorry mate - but theres no need for it.
"As to the nailbomb in the pocket thing..Well the IRA have also confirmed that they had setup cars and escape routes for their members to avoid being caught after the riots."
OK but 2 wrongs don't make a right and nothing was ever done to right the wrongs of whoever set the bloke up with the nail bombs. Not one soldier was disciplined and I think that is so bad.
How can anyone have faith in the justice system when organisations can get away with behavioour like this.
Lastnights programme was really good and ahowed actual footage.
The para's tried to stop them hence they fired back. If they hadn't of fired back then they would have got away with this.
Maybe some innocent people got shot but the majority were ira or ira supporting scum
B, sweetheart, I dont want us to fall out about this in any way, dont get offended.
But we cant stoop to their level, we have to expect a higher standard of behaviour from our armed forces. The attitude expressed in your post, while understandable, is exactly the kind of thinking that makes loyalists take up their guns and shoot random catholics.
No matter how much anger you feel at the IRA and their supporters, stooping to their level, even just inside your head, makes you the same as them. They shoot policemen and construction workers on government contracts because they believe that, although some may be innocent, they are supporting what they see as an "invading goverment" if you see what I mean. NOT that I agree, I think the idea of "legitimate targets" is sickening, but that is why your attitude is misguided...
Your arguement the same type of justification they use when they carry out these attrocities.
Sorry babe. I understand the anger, but when you give into it and assume every catholic is an IRA suppporter, and that they deserve to be mowed down, then you become part of the problem.
[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: kaz ]
Thats not what I was saying. The IRA had organised cars and escape routes for their members beforehand. How do we know this kid was bundled into an IRA car and taken away to one of 'their' doctors. If that was how it happened then they wouldnt have concerned themselves with taking away what was in his pockets, they didnt expect to run into a roadblock. Neither of us know that those nailbombs were planted and thats how the UK justice system works. You need definate proof and trying to guess at the logic of the IRA doesnt constitute definate proof.
In case you missed it, there is a £200 million enquiry going on now and there was another enquiry at the time of Bloody Sunday..Nobody is getting away with anything. If the Paras are guilty of anything it will be found out at this enquiry. Although I suspect nothing different will be found out because the truth doesnt change.
If anyone believed bloody sundy then they will believe anything. The showing was a total farse, it was one sided make the brits to be bad and mean and the poor wee irish to be all nice and innocent.
Dont get me wrong innocents did die, and that shouldnt have happened but hey its terrorism and were getting quite used to it now.
If you believe that shite that was shown then you will believe the following:
1. The first landing on the moon is false(if you look there are no stars in the horizon!!)
2. Loch ness monster is real(yeah whatever!!)
3. Big foot is also real(itchy chin!!)
4. The NHS is an excellent service!!(Hmmmmm!!)
5. The rail service is even better(Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!)
The list could go on, in the things people will more than likely believe if they believed that shite that was shown!!
Anywho had ma splaff
P.S Not got anything to do with the topic, but nice face lift(thesite)nice colour of orange. <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: wuckfit ]
The implication being that every single Catholic protesting about the grotesque discrimination dished out to them by the British Government is 'IRA supporting scum'? hate to break this to you but the Catholics hate the violence as much as anyone else, but, hey, no-one ever slags off the Loyalists for being paramilitaries.
A lot of people are under the misguided belief that the Unionists are good people anbd that the Catholic Republicans are scum. Hate to break this to you, but the Protestants are just as bad...when did they decomission their weapons?
The paramilitaries on both sides are evil murdering scum, so you cant just call the IRA evil. The IRA wont decomission whilst the Loyalists have weapons, and, to be quite honest, I dont blame them. Its takes two to have a bombing war, its merely coincidence that the Loyalists happen to be blowing up people the British regard as inferior beings, and have done all the way through history.
Bollocks...We havent regarded any Irish as inferior beings for at least 40 years <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
If the forensic techniques that are available today were available then some of those shot may have been proved to have been carrying weapons.
Some of those shot were innocent of "not using weapons".
I doubt very much that a nail bomb was planted, soldiers don't go round carrying them.
Some priests do activley support the IRA and will lie to protect the IRA.
This happened though not on bloody sunday:I can't find a link but i can remember a priest taking a weapon from a shot IRA man, I think the priest was then shot. ( if you think that all priests are pure as the driven snow look how their abuse of children is covered up).
Once a gunman has used his weapon there will be groups of sympathiesers who will remove the weapon.
The IRA used the march to their own ends and in this case won the propagander war.
IRA gunmen used the crowd as cover maybe some of those shot were unknowingly part of the cover and were caught in the cross fire.
The truth will never be known. Those Irish that could show what happened, that the IRA were there will never come forward through fear of intimidation. (A case in point:The Omagh bombers are all known but witnesses will not testify through fear).
Soldiers who acted irresposibly are not going to admit it either.
The IRA are not going to admit their involment for obvious reasons.
This enquiry is Blairs pandering to the IRA who are STILL killing despite the so called peace process.
The programme was a dramatisation designed to show the army in the worst light. Why no dramatisations of IRA atrocities ???
Having served over 3 years in NI as as a soldier I hate both catholic and protastant terrorists who have little regard for who they hurt.
I found that the average Irishman/woman to be really nice whatever their faith and Ireland to be a great country. They just want to live a normal life.
[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: WillyPete ]
Lets get one thing straight I DONT SUPPORT ANY PARAMILITARIES....And the UVF and so on have no killed half as many as the IRA look at the omagh bomb which shows just how sick the IRA are they said the bomb was at one end of the town and people were moved to the other end were the bomb really was.
And also it was a break off of the civil rights march that were throwing stones at the army while the cock eyed IRA tried to shoot but anyway it was these people that were fired upon. Not the actual civil rights marchers
Who is it protecting the catholic kids at the school ???? Oh I know the police and army.
Well...yoou may not have but I lived in Ireland as a child and I know for a fact that racism against the Irish was still going on (from ythe English ) 20 years if not 10 years ago!
AS IT DOES WITH THE WELSH ALSO
[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: byny ]