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bloody sunday

13

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by WillyPete:
    [QB]Some thoughts:

    ( if you think that all priests are pure as the driven snow look how their abuse of children is covered up).

    This is a rediculous argument and should not be a part of this discussion. There are bad people in every profession that does not make them IRA sympathisers or make the whole profession suspect.
    You need to hone your argument skills instead of resorting to this!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Byny, there MAY have been bad paratroopers in the company that were present at Bloody Sunday, but that does not make them murderers or the whole troop suspect.

    Maybe you should look at the strength of your own argument. Just a thought.

    The tendency for this post is to generalise wildly and tar everyone with the same brush. Does anyone know the facts? Was anyone there? I accept that you are hypothesising, and commenting in your own opinions, but you may need to remember that it is only your opinion, and therefore suspect.

    If people take it as such, then we might not lose the thread of the discussion, and not have it closed down because people are taking things so personally.

    Just my thoughts, though...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DJP:
    <STRONG>Byny, there MAY have been bad paratroopers in the company that were present at Bloody Sunday, but that does not make them murderers or the whole troop suspect.

    Maybe you should look at the strength of your own argument. Just a thought.

    The tendency for this post is to generalise wildly and tar everyone with the same brush. Does anyone know the facts? Was anyone there? I accept that you are hypothesising, and commenting in your own opinions, but you may need to remember that it is only your opinion, and therefore suspect.

    If people take it as such, then we might not lose the thread of the discussion, and not have it closed down because people are taking things so personally.

    Just my thoughts, though...</STRONG>

    MMMMM can't think where you got the idea I'm taking it personally...I'm actually enjoying the discussion. I think you are wrong to assume that because I have an opinion it is suspect! I have an opinion that could be changed by decent argumnet and discussion!

    my point earlier was - that bringing paedophile priests into the discussion was really a bit of an un-neccesary swipe and really had nothing to do with the interesting exchange of views on Bloody Sunday.

    I wouldn't say I have tried to blame the whole British army, apologies if I did - I know I refered to an organisation covering up but by this I mean the commanders,team, regiment who were there on the day.

    I DO personally think that from the evidence provided and the widgery Tribunal, that there are some questions that need answering and some re-investigation that needs to be done.

    However I also Accept (And have said earlier) that the IRA also have to take some responsibility for the deaths of what may have been innocent people because witnesses do say that they fired at the soldiers before the army started firing.

    What I am not prepared to do is stop giving my opinions based on the facts that I am aware of because you think I am taking it too personally.

    If I did that then I may as well sit here as a silent witness and contribute nothing to the discussion! in fact I could just not bother to log on in the first place but what would I learn from that? What kind of questions would I have answered. The whole point of these discussions is to learn something you may not have known before, not to refuse to budge in your opinion and stick to your guns even when you wonder if you were wrong because you are too proud to admit it.

    Part of having a discussion is that you listen to other peoples points of view and learn something.

    Finally - I have tried not to generalise wildly, nor tar everyone with the same brush ..can't quite work out from what you have said if yoou agree with that way of discussing things or not, but I think it would be wrong to behave that way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well...yoou may not have but I lived in Ireland as a child and I know for a fact that racism against the Irish was still going on (from ythe English ) 20 years if not 10 years ago!

    Someone needs to lighten up. It was a joke as shown by the little winky smiley thing.

    You say there was a lot of racism from the English in Ireland. Just how many English are there in Ireland? Are you talking of NI or Ireland here?

    I think they picked up on the paedophile priest thing because you picked them out as being somehow more respectable. You said 'the protesters, priests, doctors and politicians'. Thats suggests that you put the Priests, doctors and politicians above the normal protesters. Just because someone is in a respected profession doesnt mean they arent criminals.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    byny,

    I used the abusing of children just to point out that some priests lie, I know that those that support the IRA will be in a minority as are the ones that abuse children and of course I'm not suggesting that priests are the only ones that "lie" or cover things up. I was making a point.

    Lots of things went wrong that day and IMO the truth will never come out, I think the millions being spent on this enquiry are a waste and nothing good will come of it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>

    Someone needs to lighten up. It was a joke as shown by the little winky smiley thing.

    You say there was a lot of racism from the English in Ireland. Just how many English are there in Ireland? Are you talking of NI or Ireland here?

    I think they picked up on the paedophile priest thing because you picked them out as being somehow more respectable. You said 'the protesters, priests, doctors and politicians'. Thats suggests that you put the Priests, doctors and politicians above the normal protesters. Just because someone is in a respected profession doesnt mean they arent criminals.</STRONG>


    1. Sorry I'll lighten up- didn't see the joke
    2. I mean the English people who came to the republic of ireland to visit me and my family. I've only ever passed through N Ireland on a bus or as a very small child.
    3. I said Protesters, Priests, Doctors and Politicians but wasn't intending to highlight them as more important. It's just that those professions were present doing their job on the day (the Priests giving last rites, Doctors trying to save blood, politicians trying to lead a peaceful march, protesters protesting against internment)
    4. Just because there are criminals in a profession doesn't mean the whole profession is full of criminals.

    Anyway - The programme on BBC2 was worth watching if anyone can get a hold of it, perhaps it'll be on choice.

    I actually think that the Bloody Sunday dramatisation was pretty close to what happened, at least if the film footage from the day is to be believed (perhaps it was faked)

    Not so sure how I'll like the Jimmy Mcgovern one showing next week (He of Hilsborough fame) but apparently it starts in 1969 so will give a bit more background.

    My sister said lastnight that we went to get shoes in Belfast when we were little (What no shoe shop in Donegal!) and the place was crawling with soldiers, pretty scary for a young child I guess. I don't remember it - I just remember the new shoes.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    My sister said lastnight that we went to get shoes in Belfast when we were little (What no shoe shop in Donegal!) and the place was crawling with soldiers, pretty scary for a young child I guess.

    Belfast.....Pretty bloody scary as a soldier too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    just a thought: if the new tribunal into the shootings decides definitively in either way - pro british or pro irish - would everyone accept this decision? i dont think most of u would. if it is pro irish would u british supporters claim that this was another piece of propaganda that again is evidence of the british bowing to the ira terrorists.
    similarly would the irish supporters here claim that once again the british legal system has failed the irish, if the result found in favour of the british?

    the point is that everyone on here has strong opinions on a matter that they will have developed from what they read, or saw on tv. of course your stance will probably depend on which side the author or the tv producer took. i know my views did.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I will never accept it was just the fault of the army.

    The IRA has to take responsibility as well. Neither side are blamless.

    If the tribunal finds one side only at fault it's wrong, so are going to see another fudge.

    How about....If the IRA & Army had not been shooting and it's clear both sides were shooting, this would not have happened....so both are at fault.

    IMO you will never get the truth after this length of time has passed.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That the IRA representatives refuse to be seated thus becoming 'subjects' of the crown...pretty much says where this is going.

    Only the Irish can settle this matter...with or without pervert priests...and agsin I'll just say that soldiers do not start shooting without leave from their officers.

    The british army exercises through its officers more immediate control over the individual soldier and his/her conduct than just about any other army in the world...stone me if I'm wrong; I'm not!

    Here's my take on why england isn't just packing it up and going home. NI like Viet Nam offere a GREAD distraction for the folks at home from what their politicians are doing...things that may not be in anyone's best interest, except the politicians!
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>
    Here's my take on why england isn't just packing it up and going home. NI like Viet Nam offere a GREAD distraction for the folks at home from what their politicians are doing...things that may not be in anyone's best interest, except the politicians!
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

    I dont know why you think any of this is "cool". Just as well you dont have to live through it, eh?

    The British government would get rid of NI if it could, no worries. Its a political milestone round any government's neck, and no one on the mainland really gives a rats ass about NI politics, everyone is sick of it. Its time consuming, complex, hateful and wins no popularity contests.

    The problem is Diesel dear, the UK is a democracy, and the majority of NI still want to remain part of the UK. Its got nothing to do with gaining support, you understand nothing. They cant force NI people into something they dont want.

    Besides, just uniting Ireland in one go would mean disaster, chaos and more violence. The future of NI has to be decided in a democratic, sensitive and probably time-consuming way. Its too volitile to do anything else. The path to peace, which is the ultimate goal here, in case everyone has forgotton, will be long, hard and complicated.

    Your attitude never ceases to amaze me Diesel <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

    [ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: kaz ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well said!! Nobody here gives a damn about NI, people are bored of it. I think most people have even forgotten what the fights all about.

    I'd just like to know why Martin Maguiness(sp?) is going to be allowed to sit in the commons, why isn't he being tried for treason?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Diesel,

    I hate to break it to you mate but Martin McGuiness, Gerry Adams and all the other Sinn Fein twats ARE subjects of the crown. They hold British passports so they dont get a choice.

    They refuse to swear allegiance to the crown which is fair enough. They also fail to swear allegiance to Parliament which is totally fucked up. They claim to support democracy and then they do this?

    England isnt packing up and going home because more than half of the people in NI want us to stay. We dont have a choice, this is a democracy.

    For one so experienced, I would have thought you could comprehend the situation Diesel.

    PS, I dread to think what our politicians have been doing if they needed to keep us distracted for 80 fucking years.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by fraggle:
    <STRONG>just a thought: if the new tribunal into the shootings decides definitively in either way - pro british or pro irish - would everyone accept this decision? i dont think most of u would. if it is pro irish would u british supporters claim that this was another piece of propaganda that again is evidence of the british bowing to the ira terrorists.
    similarly would the irish supporters here claim that once again the british legal system has failed the irish, if the result found in favour of the british?

    the point is that everyone on here has strong opinions on a matter that they will have developed from what they read, or saw on tv. of course your stance will probably depend on which side the author or the tv producer took. i know my views did.</STRONG>


    I don't think it's about being pro-British and Pro Irish but more to do with finding out if what happened was anyones fault and if an injustice was done at the first tribunal. By stating it as Pro one or the other I think the wrong emphasis is being put on the whole thing.

    But no - there will be people who will disagree whatever the outcome.

    I guess that I would have to read the new report and then my views might change.
    I wouldn't say I'm an 'Irish supporter' but I do believe there was an injustice done and it needs to be rectified or explained.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Diesel,
    The british army exercises through its officers more immediate control over the individual soldier and his/her conduct than just about any other army in the world...stone me if I'm wrong; I'm not!

    Having spent 16 years in the Army I know your statement above to be untrue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, just a minor emergency at 'home' will have the brits out of NI and the matter will be settled.

    I don't believe there would be a massacre or even much fighting...just the creation of another political party within the Irish government.

    We, US, got out of NV because folks at home got fed up with it...our soldiers being made to fight a 'politically correct' war and not allowed to fight to win! Wonder how much longer NI will fit a similar mold?

    Anyway...I tend to just post the smilies as a matter of habit...because the 'kuel' one looks like me without a beard!
    <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>No, just a minor emergency at 'home' will have the brits out of NI and the matter will be settled.

    I don't believe there would be a massacre or even much fighting...just the creation of another political party within the Irish government.

    </STRONG>

    just another example of how little you understand about the situation. I love the way the nationality of those in NI that consider themselves Irish is so sacred and important, yet you can so easily right off the nationality of those who consider themselves British.

    It is ALOT more complicated than this Diesel, you need to see things in terms of our day to day lives here, rather than lines on a map or moves on a chess board.

    Living here, I find it impossible to be so cold, I found your smilies insensitive. But if it saves us from having a photo in your sig then I guess its OK <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="tongue.gif" border="0">

    (just to show I have a sense of humour too)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>No, just a minor emergency at 'home' will have the brits out of NI and the matter will be settled.
    </STRONG>

    Your ignorance is truly breathtaking Diesel.

    Since the IRA uprisings resumed in the early part of the 20th Century, we've managed to fight in Two World Wars, defend the Falklands and had a brief trips to the Gulf, Bosnia and Kosovo.

    Of course, you could also note the fact that the British have been in Ireland since the twelfth century. Hell we even managed to collonise a small insignificant little place across the Atlantic during this time...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, but now you've brought world class terrorist into your national home and made them compfortable...nothing the IRA has ever done compares to what they are capable of.

    What will be done if say; a dirty bomb is detonated in a cargo container in down town London making a good part of the city as radioactive as Chernoble? And maybe everything within 50k of it?

    Just a thought...mind you, I don't advocate such a thing but plans were found for just such terrorism both here, US, and there, UK.

    My own people being the victims of ethnic cleansing at the hands of Lawrence and the red coats...I tend to be a bit cynical about events you are living and experiencing right now.

    Hmmmmm, wonder if there is any money in that one...no one seems to know...we became US citizens when we came with the land during the Louisiana Purchase!

    <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by beatnusoon:
    <STRONG>you really are a shaft. You read a couple of books and think you know everything cuz you quote a couple of facts from them. In russia a crowd was fired upon and fuck all was done about that. you take a little bit of history probably your key stage 3's or something and try to turn it into a detailed argument about something that you know nothing of, apart from what you seen on one shit film. Inbred wanker</STRONG>

    If this refers to me, I'd ask that you think a bit before you engage your typing fingers. Someone here asked how old I am a while ago. Well, I'm old enough to have had bullets fired by Paras whiz past my head as I and my friends, peaceful lads all, ran for our lives.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean_K, wonder if I ever did a "P" check on you in the streets or maybe I stopped a car you were in at a VCP......small world <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">

    And I'm old enough to have had bullets whiz past my head fired by the IRA and me being a peaceful squaddie 'n' all <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">

    And no I wasn't a Para, I mean I know how to use a knife and fork.

    [ 27-01-2002: Message edited by: WillyPete ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Diesel:
    <STRONG>What will be done if say; a dirty bomb is detonated in a cargo container in down town London making a good part of the city as radioactive as Chernoble? And maybe everything within 50k of it? <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

    I have a feeling that the reaction would be similar to the US reaction to Sept 11th. Difference being that we know where the head of the organisations are...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by WillyPete:
    <STRONG>Sean_K, wonder if I ever did a "P" check on you in the streets or maybe I stopped a car you were in at a VCP......small world <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">

    And I'm old enough to have had bullets whiz past my head fired by the IRA and me being a peaceful squaddie 'n' all <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">

    And no I wasn't a Para, I mean I know how to use a knife and fork.

    [ 27-01-2002: Message edited by: WillyPete ]</STRONG>

    Willypete,

    It might have been, but if so, it'd be a long time ago. I left the land of my birth as a youth not long after the event in question, and have lived as I see fit in a faraway land where I'm not persecuted for being Irish. I don't support the IRA, UDF or any of the rest of those idiots. Nor do I blame a bunch of English kids who get sent to NI in uniform. But if the English weren't there, the excuse would be gone, and all the idiots would be treated as the criminals they are, because it would be evident quickly enough that all they are is thugs.

    The subject of this thread is bloody Sunday. There may have been IRA with weapons in the crowd. It was a big crowd. I didn't see any. But that doesn't mean much. But the Paras are supposed to be trained, disciplined soldiers, and they fired into a crowd made up mostly of peaceful demonstrators. Instead of being an effective solution to IRA involvement, they became a part of the problem. There was a failure there, and it is a failure someone should pay for, not just those Irish who lost their lives. But each inquiry comes up with excuses for them instead of looking at the real questions. Who decided to have them there? What was intended to be achieved? What was done to try to achieve that?

    England has a history of these events. And a history of making excuses, of never actually learning the lessons that are there before them. I expect it will continue. England has not really changed. You (the English in general) still think you are somehow superior to the rest of the world.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    England has not really changed. You (the English in general) still think you are somehow superior to the rest of the world.

    Rubbish. 'The English in general' think nothing of the sort. Our govt may still think we are, our PM may think he is God but you are totally wrong about the English.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Sean_K:
    <STRONG>

    But if the English weren't there, the excuse would be gone, and all the idiots would be treated as the criminals they are, because it would be evident quickly enough that all they are is thugs.

    </STRONG>

    By english i assume you mean the Army ?But if the "english" left I can't see it would stop the violence the army were only called it help keep the peace as irish were figthing irish and that's what will happen again i think.

    Both catholic and Prot terrorists are just crims, they run the drugs,smuggling, prostitution,protection etc etc I have no love for either side.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>

    Rubbish. 'The English in general' think nothing of the sort. Our govt may still think we are, our PM may think he is God but you are totally wrong about the English.</STRONG>

    You'd better tell each and every one of your countrymen who go out in the world, because they surely do think that way. And given this site, where you all talk about how to solve the problems of America, Zimbabwe, etc...what do you think that really says?

    Willypete, I'm not saying it would stop the violence. But the English and the Army being there isn't stopping the violence either. The only solution that will really work is to let the Irish work it out themselves.

    [ 28-01-2002: Message edited by: Sean_K ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean,

    This is a politics discussion site. We are talking about ideas. Obviously nothing we say in here will become govt policy.

    There are a fair number of Irish, Welsh, Scots and Americans on this board as well. Does commenting on world affairs make them as evil and interventionist as us English?

    You post on these topics yourself. Does that mean that you are as bad as an Englishman?

    You Sean are nothing but a racist.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>

    You Sean are nothing but a racist.</STRONG>

    Are those who hate the Nazis racist?

    I don't hate the English people as a whole, just the ones like yourself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sean,

    The nazis arent a race.

    Ah you hate me and those like me..So just what do you hate about me? I was always under the impression that you hated the English because of our past exploitation of the world. Ive never espoused the ideas of Empire or exploitation on this board. Just what is it about the English, or me inparticular if you wish to hide your true feelings, that you dislike so much?
    England has not really changed. You (the English in general) still think you are somehow superior to the rest of the world.

    Sounds like you do have issues with all of us English.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>
    Sounds like you do have issues with all of us English.</STRONG>

    Yes, of course he does...so do the Welsh, Scots et al. Just cos were better than em <IMG alt="image" SRC="tongue.gif" border="0">

    But seriously, the English are NOT a megalomaniac race of people intent on destroying the world, and it is not the English who are causing the problems in Northern Ireland. The people causing the problem are the Protestant scum who march down the streets singing about how the English kicked the Catholics' arses 450 years ago, and then throw stones at 5-year-old girls, and the IRA tosspieces who think its fun to blow up children, like in Omagh and in Warrington.

    The English didnt make people blow others up, the Irish paramilitaries did. Their fault, not ours.

    Having said that, the Paras on Bloody Sunday behaved as despicably as the IRA by needlessly slaughtering innocent bystanders as some sort of 'revenge' for past murders.
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