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FAO Clandestine and the likes

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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Can't be bothered to get out a history book, can you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Can't be bothered to make a straight comment can you?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Can't be bothered to get involved anymore, can I?

    ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    Like the concerted pressure on Iraq?

    No! You want to invade Israel now?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    Charming, how everyone attempts to to do the finances of the US.
    I think people will listen to you, once you pay tax there.

    He can't even suggest? Charming how you pronounce the Iraeis are saints. Maybe people will start listening to you when you go and live in the Palestinian refugee camps.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    He can't even suggest? Charming how you pronounce the Iraeis are saints. Maybe people will start listening to you when you go and live in the Palestinian refugee camps.

    Maybe people would start listening to you, when you've been in the near of a suicide attack, shooting, stonethrowing or something like that :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    Maybe people would start listening to you, when you've been in the near of a suicide attack, shooting, stonethrowing or something like that :rolleyes:

    IRA bomb in Docklands, London; I was V. near that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But I guess I can't listen to anything you say until you've been in arefugee camp.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin


    Talking about what we know about the region, perhaps you have been giving non-military issues a miss, but the Israeli economy is in dire straits. The tourism industry has collapsed and there is an ongoing boycott of Israeli products in many parts of the world. The one thing Israel needs now is economic aid. Sometime simple solutions are the best ones.

    Get that history book out an look at the times when Israel did not have US aid. You seem to think what you describe above is something new. It isn't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    Get that history book out an look at the times when Israel did not have US aid. You seem to think what you describe above is something new. It isn't.

    Did Israel get US aid before '67?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    Did Israel get US aid before '67?

    Who cares? What matters is now. Now the US funds Israel and until that finishes there is a clear conflict of interest. Its like Bernie Ecclestone funding New Labour.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    Who cares? What matters is now. Now the US funds Israel and until that finishes there is a clear conflict of interest. Its like Bernie Ecclestone funding New Labour.

    I care. And I got the answer to my question.

    Why is it a conflict of interests, when the two countries are battling against the same thing?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    I care. And I got the answer to my question.

    Why is it a conflict of interests, when the two countries are battling against the same thing?
    Because the US also says it wants to work with the Palestinians. Not very fair is it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Do you think that Palestinians don't aid from the US?

    Amzes me, that they're in the shit state they're in, when everyone is pumping money into them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    Do you think that Palestinians don't aid from the US?

    Amzes me, that they're in the shit state they're in, when everyone is pumping money into them.

    (in the form of Israeli missiles, bombs and bullets yes)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    (in the form of Israeli missiles, bombs and bullets yes)

    No in the form of aid, which lands into private pockets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jac is right. The Palestinians are given almost a billion a year, Egypt gets a billion a year not to attack Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Pardon the comparison, but do you think that if the residents of a Nazi concentration camp had been "pumped with money" it would have made their lives any easier?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Pardon the comparison, but do you think that if the residents of a Nazi concentration camp had been "pumped with money" it would have made their lives any easier?


    Perhaps a better comparison would be the blacks in apartheid South Africa?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The blacks under Apartheid were not herded and confined into squalid ghettos of cities and walled in like concentration camps with soldiers, tanks and apache helicopters shelling, rocketing and shooting at them on a daily basis however violently they were treated by the police forces in Pretoria. The Palestinian condition is every bit comparable to the Warsaw ghetto, and being called "terrorists" for fighting back with whatever limited means are left to them is also rather comparable to what the Nazis called those Jews who rose up against them before they were brutally slaughtered.

    Alladdin has the right of it.

    And by way of dispelling some previous posted assumptions the real aid situation to both Israel and the Palestinian Territories is outlined here:

    http://www.aaiusa.org/foreign_aid.htm#Aid%20to%20the%20Palestinians

    Its not so freely flowing to the Palestinians as has been asserted and whats more, one could easily ask the same question of why the Israeli economy is so eroded given the substantially greater levels of international aid which it receives. Perhaps our Likhud friends should be following Sharon's money trail before pointing fingers at their neighbours.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    The blacks under Apartheid were not herded and confined into squalid ghettos of cities and walled in like concentration camps with soldiers, tanks and apache helicopters shelling, rocketing and shooting at them on a daily basis however violently they were treated by the police forces in Pretoria.

    But then neither were they carrying out "suicide" bombing attacks. Were they?

    The ANC got it right, eventually, and realised that more power comes from passive demonstrations. Once the Palestinians understand that world opinion will turn - all the while they kill indescriminently they will find support harder to come by.

    I support the cause, I just can never support their actions and to be honest I can understand why Israel reacts like it does.

    Just as you liken Palestine to Warsaw, I would liken Israel to Stalingrad - surrounded by enemies...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    When it has already been repeatedly demonstrated through past peace settlement plans just how disingenuous the Israeli government is by not only refusing to relinquish their expansionist claims but finding ways to undermine whatever the Palestinian side has been willing to accept by trying to carve even greater concession from them in Israel's favour, or by stonewalling the process before it has even begun with multiple "pre-conditions" which it applies only to the Palestinian side and not itself, what you refer to as " world opinion" is more the result of heavily slanted mainstream media reporting than what the international community's policy perspectives may be at any given moment on the matter.

    As for being surrounded by enemies, well that is another of the long running excuses (along with the age old guilt tactic contained in the "eternal victim" syndrome we all are fed heaps of by the Israeli leadership and the press. Fact is that at the state level there is little or no viable threat to Israel from its neighbours. Especially when one considers the powerhouse backing Israel.

    You call Palestinian attacks indisciminate and yet do not extend the same judgement to Israel who's indiscriminate attacks on Palestinians occur with much greater frequency and much greater devastation to life and property throughout Gaza and the West Bank. Id like to see how pacifist youd be in the shoes of a Palestinian who has seen his family and friends slaughtered, starved, and denied any means of retaining human dignity in the virtual prison environment that has been imposed upon them.

    So long as people in the West choose to condemn Palestinians for fighting back against an illegal occupation and allow Israel to dictate negotiation conditions to their own lopsided advantage I suspect we'll never see an end to the conflict.

    This is why I do not believe the Bush admin's roadmap will lead anywhere. Already Sharon has dismissed portions of it and this US administration has shown how ready it is to cater to Sharon's demands and pre-conditions. To think it can be an impartial intermediary is laughable.

    I refer you to two other commentaries which I happen to agree with in all this...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,907876,00.html

    http://www.geocities.com/jwjip/ellen1.htm
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    As for being surrounded by enemies, well that is another of the long running excuses (along with the age old guilt tactic contained in the "eternal victim" syndrome we all are fed heaps of by the Israeli leadership and the press. Fact is that at the state level there is little or no viable threat to Israel from its neighbours. Especially when one considers the powerhouse backing Israel.

    Q: Why are they not a viable threat?

    A: Because of Israel's vigilance, defence spending etc.
    You call Palestinian attacks indisciminate and yet do not extend the same judgement to Israel who's indiscriminate attacks on Palestinians occur with much greater frequency and much greater devastation to life and property throughout Gaza and the West Bank.

    I don't dispute that Israeli defence tactics are as indiscriminate.
    Id like to see how pacifist youd be in the shoes of a Palestinian who has seen his family and friends slaughtered, starved, and denied any means of retaining human dignity in the virtual prison environment that has been imposed upon them.

    I refer you back to my ANC comparison...

    Remember also the attacks on Israel on the state's inception. Hardly an auspicious start, was it?
    So long as people in the West choose to condemn Palestinians for fighting back against an illegal occupation and allow Israel to dictate negotiation conditions to their own lopsided advantage I suspect we'll never see an end to the conflict.

    So you've completely missed my point. What the West sees is one act of aggression answered by another, the Palestinians fail to sieze the high moral ground and thus lose support. Their tactics are seen, rightly or wrongly, as terrorist in their very nature and this doesn't sit well in the Western Media. As this is what the media report, this is the view that the western populations get.

    Believe me, the day that a thousand Palestinians sit down in the road peacefully, and are still shot at will be there day that their power base rises dramatically. All the while they respond by bombing restaurants/buses/wedding receptions etc they will never get the support that their cause deserves.
    This is why I do not believe the Bush admin's roadmap will lead anywhere. Already Sharon has dismissed portions of it

    As has the Palestinian Authority...
    this US administration has shown how ready it is to cater to Sharon's demands and pre-conditions. To think it can be an impartial intermediary is laughable.

    Perhaps I missed something, but isn't the "roadmap" also an EU/Russian initiative?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent


    So you've completely missed my point. What the West sees is one act of aggression answered by another, the Palestinians fail to sieze the high moral ground and thus lose support. Their tactics are seen, rightly or wrongly, as terrorist in their very nature and this doesn't sit well in the Western Media. As this is what the media report, this is the view that the western populations get.

    Believe me, the day that a thousand Palestinians sit down in the road peacefully, and are still shot at will be there day that their power base rises dramatically. All the while they respond by bombing restaurants/buses/wedding receptions etc they will never get the support that their cause deserves.




    I feel that the Palestinians already have a lot of support, practically every foreign govt sees their need for an independant state whilst condemning the violence of both sides.

    The fact is that whilst both sides are condemned there is still little actual action by the international community to put pressure on the Israelis to make a start. Obviously the Palestinians must play there part and I feel they are making moves in the right direction, the new authority has commited to tackling terrorism in the name of peace but how can this have any legitimacy when the Israelis will not co-operate on even the most basic concessions to the Plaestinians?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sharon has said he is willing to talk to the new governement leader as soon as next week.
    That is a start.
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