You may be asked to reset your password when you try to login. This is part of a system update and is genuine, so it's safe to go ahead and do that. If you no longer have access to the email address you used to register, please email us at [email protected] rather than creating a new account. Apologies for the inconvenience.

FAO Clandestine and the likes

2

Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Palestinians have to let that one go. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong...it won't happen because to do that would be the end of a "Jewish" state. It'll be more like South Africa was. Or they could follow Hamas and they'll never know more than what they have now. They could have a prosperous state if they do let that go. Both sides are so focused on their pasts that they trade away their future...sometimes literally with the deaths of people our age.

    If the population of all the southern states was thrown out by the Indians because 'its our ancestral home' would you just let it go?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sim, do you have a realistic solution that could end the fighting. By realistic, one you think both sides could agree to someday.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Sim, do you have a realistic solution that could end the fighting. By realistic, one you think both sides could agree to someday.

    Re-Unification;

    To start with all citizens would be given the same rights. Jew and Muslim.

    Then there would be a rebuilding of the cities bulldozed by the IDF and the knocking down of most settlements.

    There should be a conciliation commission (a la South Africa)

    Incitement of religious hatred (by Orthodox Jews and Radical muslims) should be outlawed.

    The police force will be joint (equally) between the two sides.

    The IDF will be disbanded and a new army for the whole of the region founded.

    All terrorist groups to be outlawed (including the vocal advocates of settlements.)

    The return of all palestinian refugees.

    Free and fair elections. OMOV.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh, and being found to be a member of any Radical religious group will carry a life sentence and will mean you lose your passport.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So instead of an Israel and Palestine, you'd have a combined HolyLand territory?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes. Its the only way to prevent them carrying on killing each other. Model it on South Africa.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    The Palestinians have also made concessions and taken initial steps of their own Greenhat.

    BS. Everytime, EVERY TIME!, the initial steps that the Palestinians have been required and expected to do has included stopping the terrorist attacks. And they haven't done it once. Not once.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    Re-Unification;

    To start with all citizens would be given the same rights. Jew and Muslim.

    Then there would be a rebuilding of the cities bulldozed by the IDF and the knocking down of most settlements.

    There should be a conciliation commission (a la South Africa)

    Incitement of religious hatred (by Orthodox Jews and Radical muslims) should be outlawed.

    The police force will be joint (equally) between the two sides.

    The IDF will be disbanded and a new army for the whole of the region founded.

    All terrorist groups to be outlawed (including the vocal advocates of settlements.)

    The return of all palestinian refugees.

    Free and fair elections. OMOV.

    How do you force this solution on the region (because force is the only way you can put this solution into place)?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    BS. Everytime, EVERY TIME!, the initial steps that the Palestinians have been required and expected to do has included stopping the terrorist attacks. And they haven't done it once. Not once.

    Actually I think you will find HAMAS held a ceasefire whilst Israel pulled out of the West Bank, and ten years later they havent even moved half a mile, in practice at least. The settlements built on bulldozed Palestinian land are still there, and so are the F16s and Apaches.
    Orginally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
    And so many people who actually survived the Holocaust, don't survive suicide bombings.
    People go through hell, only to get their life cut off by a lunatic with issues.

    Leaving aside the fact that that argument is lazy diatribe, lets actually attack the reasoning behind it.

    A WWII veteran was clubbed to death in Oldham in 2001 by a small group of Molsem youths, so taking your reasoning to its logical conclusion we should now throw ALL Moslems out of their houses, regardless of how long their families have been there. We should then bulldoze all those houses without reparations, and then we should force them all into refugee camps, something not unlike the ghettos of the 1930s in Nazi Germany, just to utilise the Holocaust messages you have already brought into the debate. We should then tell them that we wont back down, yet we expect them to stop complaining and just get on with it, whilost building shiny new houses for ourselves where their houses once stood. We should also bomb all of them when a few extremists decide to get their land back violently, because the innocent lives of our dead will be rekindled by killing a few hundred of them. We should label them merciless terrorists whilst bombing parts of their camps, with many women and children in them. Whilst bombing them, we should tell them its all their fault, give them a few unreasonable demands along with a reasonable "stop bombing us" (tarnished by our hypocritical bombs) then make it out that they started it all, and its not our fault at all.

    And so it goes on, Israel wont give the Palestinians any room for manoeuvre, whilst demanding that they perform backflips through hoops.

    Random hasty definiton: a Zionist wants the "Holy Land" given back to the Jews, who will be in control. Left and right agree with this, though it is only the right that take this to mean no non-Jews, on pain of death seemingly.

    Oh, and before anyone asks, I believe Northern Ireland should have a referendum to decide whether it it Irish again, but I believe violence is wrong to achieve that. And that is regardless of beliefs (though I think the IRA can be equated with HAMAS and the Orangemen with the Israeli government). Scotland should not, as it was their king that joined them, so tough luck.

    And Ill point out to the lazy amongst you: I have not once criticised the Jewish faith, merely sections of its members who claim to act in its defence whilst killing people. And the bombings by HAMAS will give the right-wing more votes, as the people will naturally want revenge, but dont be surprised when the Palestinians move to the right by supporting HAMAS.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    How do you force this solution on the region (because force is the only way you can put this solution into place)?

    Quite simply, in one of two ways:

    (1) Give HAMAS F16s and apaches too, and level the playing field. See how long before mutually assured destruction makes them behave.
    (2)Take away the F16s and Apaches from Israel, and impose economic sanctions until Israel complies with the UN.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Greenhat
    How do you force this solution on the region (because force is the only way you can put this solution into place)?

    Concerted pressure by the EU + US. A big gamble by the Israeli's and wed be there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Actually I think you will find HAMAS held a ceasefire whilst Israel pulled out of the West Bank, and ten years later they havent even moved half a mile, in practice at least. The settlements built on bulldozed Palestinian land are still there, and so are the F16s and Apaches.

    And only HAMAS conducts terrorist attacks?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Quite simply, in one of two ways:

    (1) Give HAMAS F16s and apaches too, and level the playing field. See how long before mutually assured destruction makes them behave.
    (2)Take away the F16s and Apaches from Israel, and impose economic sanctions until Israel complies with the UN.

    1. Hamas couldn't keep an aircraft flying for 10 seconds.

    2. YOU take them away. Good luck.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Simbelyne
    Concerted pressure by the EU + US. A big gamble by the Israeli's and wed be there.

    Like the concerted pressure on Iraq?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'll let it pass on the perceived effectiveness of the concerted pressure on Iraq- we can discuss it elsewhere if you want. But if you want the pressure on Israel to work, you only need to do one thing: cut off the massive economic and military aid the US provides. They'll be sitting on the negotiating table faster than a speeding artillery shell homing in on a refugee camp.

    A thought has just occurred about the situation actually: after hearing that France was opposed to the removal of Saddam and ending the suffering of the poor Iraqis because of their oil and arms deals, could it be the that the US has happily allowed the Middle East conflict to go on for 4 decades, and the Israelis subject the Palestinians to years of oppression, confinement, restrictions and killings because of the billions of Dollars worth of arms sales they do?

    I mean, all those F16s, Apache choppers and other equipment needed to keep the Palestinians at bay must be making a fortune for Lockheed Martin and Boeing, right?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep, could be, although I suspect that it has more to do with the large number of "jewish" votes in the US, and not a little guilt that they didn't act sooner in the 30s...

    Also, it might be that they are supporting a democratically elected Govt...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A democratically elected government's wrongdoings are every bit as bad as those perpetrated by non-democratic governments.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    A democratically elected government's wrongdoings are every bit as bad as those perpetrated by non-democratic governments.

    Indeed they are. As Germany proved after the election of the National Socialists.

    However, how many democratically elected Govts surround them? Should democracy be defended against aggression?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent
    Indeed they are. As Germany proved after the election of the National Socialists.

    However, how many democratically elected Govts surround them? Should democracy be defended against aggression?

    Yes, it should. And the Palestinians should be allowed to vote on whether or not Israel should just fuck off out of the West Bank and Gaza back to their 1948 boundaries.

    If its a democracy its a democracy...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kermit
    Yes, it should. And the Palestinians should be allowed to vote on whether or not Israel should just fuck off out of the West Bank and Gaza back to their 1948 boundaries.

    If its a democracy its a democracy...

    If the West Bank and Gaza form part of Israel then Israelis should be allowed to vote too, afterall how did they become part of Israel?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The West Bank and Gaza don't form part of Israel any more than Kuwait formed part of Iraq from August 1990 to February 1991.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    The West Bank and Gaza don't form part of Israel any more than Kuwait formed part of Iraq from August 1990 to February 1991.


    Except that Kuwait didn't invade Iraq.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wonder how this will all play out. What I'm seeing is Israel saying no state until the violence stops and Hamas saying no state period.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    I'll let it pass on the perceived effectiveness of the concerted pressure on Iraq- we can discuss it elsewhere if you want. But if you want the pressure on Israel to work, you only need to do one thing: cut off the massive economic and military aid the US provides. They'll be sitting on the negotiating table faster than a speeding artillery shell homing in on a refugee camp.

    Exactly equal aid is provided to Egypt as required by treaty.

    Maybe the US should cut off all the aid they provide worldwide? You could make up for it out of your personal wealth, right?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The point here wasn't whether it's right they get the aid they get, or how much other nations get. The point was about finding ways to make them comply with the outstanding UN resolutions and negotiate a final and lasting peace. And if the US was to stop the money train to Israel we'd see results fairly quickly.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    And if the US was to stop the money train to Israel we'd see results fairly quickly.

    Charming, how everyone attempts to to do the finances of the US.
    I think people will listen to you, once you pay tax there.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not so much finances as the self-appointed position of Saviour of the Middle East the US has given itself. Amongst other outstanding issues Bush has requested several times now that the Israelis stop the spread of illegal settlements; each time those "great friends of America" Ariel Sharon and his government have raised two fingers to the US government. So what can Bush do? Well, the solution seems simple enough...

    By the way are you suggesting I can't discuss the Middle East process and what steps America could take because I'm not a US citizen? Or is it only when I say something you don't like?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Aladdin
    Not so much finances as the self-appointed position of Saviour of the Middle East the US has given itself. Amongst other outstanding issues Bush has requested several times now that the Israelis stop the spread of illegal settlements; each time those "great friends of America" Ariel Sharon and his government have raised two fingers to the US government. So what can Bush do? Well, the solution seems simple enough...

    By the way are you suggesting I can't discuss the Middle East process and what steps America could take because I'm not a US citizen? Or is it only when I say something you don't like?

    Israel did fine without US aid for many years. Your idea of a solution is simplistic and simply shows how little you know about the history of the region.

    As for what you can and can't discuss? You can discuss anything you want. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, the comment was triggered by something which I didn't like.
    But don't tell me that it was un-intelligent :p
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :p to yourself. ;)



    How could I expect anyone to take me seriously Greenhat? I'm just a character in a story.

    Talking about what we know about the region, perhaps you have been giving non-military issues a miss, but the Israeli economy is in dire straits. The tourism industry has collapsed and there is an ongoing boycott of Israeli products in many parts of the world. The one thing Israel needs now is economic aid. Sometime simple solutions are the best ones.
Sign In or Register to comment.