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But either way, you cannot deny that there are more teenage pregnancies now than, say, 20 years ago. Likewise, underage sex is more common now. I'm not saying it has never happened ( <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> ), but there has definitely been a loss of moral fabric in our society.
Single parents I suppose depends on your definition of morality. But traditionally the family consists of a mother, father and child(ren). A single parent is not a traditional family - amoral? Dunno, but single-parenthood leads to other problems, so perhaps it is a precursor rather than an moral problem in itself.
Drinking and drug abuse are amoral.
*is thoroughly confused <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">*
PS, I would like to thank Kentish, MoK, Whowhere, Balddog, eb, beatnusoon, Vox, KT, Skive, Mindless, Mackenzie, Devilman, Thanatos, Ripper, RNT, Alex, Turtle, Dan, Diesel and everyone else that I have had discussions with because I am now......
[ 17-05-2002: Message edited by: Toadborg ]
and we used to put children up chimneys too.
Your point is?
<STRONG>
If it is intentional and the person then expects the state to support them and their child.
Generally though, no.
<STRONG>
I didn't say it was high, I said things had got worse.
When you was eight what did you used to do, when you weren't at school?
What about your dad, and his dad...
Teenage and unmarried mothers were shunned, sex before marriage was actively discouraged - as was cohabitation before marriage. Now we accept it and it has become more of a "norm"...
Drug abuse may have occurred, but I was never exposed to it at school. Sorry, I lie. I knew of ONE person who smoked black lebanese - the worst extent was a cigarette behind the bike sheds. The extent of abuse has increased...
I will also contend that some moral standards have increased...tolerance being one.
Even though most of your posts are a load of toss <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Kentish you always have to make a snidey comment don't you <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
I agree with that, but as part of the change, there has been a loss of morals as well as an improvement in society's attitude.
Even if you reject all the other examples, you cannot say that teenage pregnancy is the result of improvements in society. Sorry, it was meant to be a joke <IMG SRC="frown.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Maybe there is a case that societies morals have previously been too constrained, a 14 year old girl may have developed to a stage where she can give birth, it is natural so what is wrong with it?
I know "child" pregnancies seem wrong intuitively but can you actual reason it out as to why they are wrong?
<IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
You have an even more bizarre sense of humour than me <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> [/snidey comment] </STRONG>
What is wrong with a paedophile shagging children? What is wrong with walking down the High Street naked on a Friday morning? What is wrong with driving at 150mph on the motorway? What is wrong with killing your noisy neighbour?
There are lots of things that we would want to do, but we do not do them because we are constrained by our own morals. Society uses morals as guidelines, and they are for the protection of everyone in that society.
Do you really want to see a generation of 14 year old mothers? 1. The mothers rarely finish school
2. The family is more likely to end up living in poverty.
3. The family will rely on state hand-outs and council accommodation.
4. The children have more health complications.
5. The children are more likely to become teenage mothers themselves.
et cetera
Her "family" lives on a council estate in Portsmouth. Her mother is permanently out of work and lives on benefits, as does her older sister. Her mother has made no effort to control Maxine, and nooone has any idea who or where the father is.
Her grandparents are ashamed and disgusted and have nothing to do with the family.
The only reason this was in the paper today is because she is now 16, the police are finally able to do something more "permanent" with her when she commits another crime. They have detained her, given her supervision orders, probation and fines. Now they have banned her efectively from leaving her house indefenitely. If she violates the order she faces 2 years in a YOI.
So people, who's to blame? Is it her mother's for not doing anything about her, or is it society's?
No. In some areas our moral standards have increased, in others declined. I should have said that some aspects are not necessarily accepted, just tolerated.
<STRONG>
No. That would be me <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Although I didn't this time.
Congratulations on joining the "big boys" at last.
<STRONG>
Apart from the maturity aspect - not physical but mental...
Or the fact that their bodies are still fragile - even an 11 year old can physically be capable of reproduction...even though their bones haven't matured...
[ 16-05-2002: Message edited by: Man Of Kent ]
KT I stay mainly on the politics forum and there is a bizarre shortage of females here, why is that? <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
No. A lot of these things would not be true in a minority of cases.
Sadly, most of that list is applicable to many teenage pregnancies. Women, know your place <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
It's not just working class people that have teenage pregnancies. It's just that wealthier families are more likely to encourage an abortion, or when the girl does have the baby, you do not notice her as much as you do the teenage mum on the bus...
Because we don't talk about make-up and shopping often enough <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Seriously though, I'd noticed that too.
and whilst we are talking about morals, is it moral to make women pay VAT on sanitary products?
If you are thick (no offence) or have been nmade to feel like you have no prospects, and if your mum and dad are not much to aspire to, then maybe having a baby is a way out, something you can see yourself doing well.
My friend was 17 and really wanted a baby, to have something to do, some purpose in life. It is quite sad really.
I don't think education is relavent, everyone knows about condoms and contraception, but so many kids just don't bother. I can't understand that personally, ok so I have had unprotected sex but each time have been terrified afterwards
!
Filled with nothing but catty remarks and pathetic arguments.
So, no change then. <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
[ 16-05-2002: Message edited by: Man Of Kent ]
Probably not, but we pay VAT on shaving foam and razors, and toilet roll for that matter.
I'd be quite happy to see VAT on sanitary products removed. </STRONG>
And whose fault is all of this?
Let me guess...society's?
It doesn't change the fact that there are more "working class" teenage mothers. And before you go off on one of your liberal feminist rants, I think in today's society 'you pays your money, you takes your choice'. We are all responsible for our own actions, regardless of outside influences.
If you don't want "words put in your mouth" make it clear what you are saying <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
What was your point?
Someone asked why there was and I attempted to answer the questions..
Maybe the fact that teenage Mums automatically get council flats does not help.
The things I said may be reasons but in the end it comes down to the individual. If a person is strong enough they can decide they want to make something for themself and not blame their circumstances but it must be more difficult if you grow up with no encouragement.
Don't <IMG SRC="mad.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> at me, you started it!
Well...my mum was a teenager and unmarried when she got pregnant and she was working class. My dad was Middle to Upper Class.
They went on to have 3 kids who took the odd day off school, some of whom take drugs, all of whom have sex before marriage, one of whom had an abortion, one of whom was on the dole for 8 years because he could get away with it....but...none of us beat people up, all of us are polite and decent friendly non agressive people who respect our parents, don't keep secrets from our mum (Dad dead), have a decent education, consider ourselves bright caring members of the community.
So what did we have that other people might not? We had self respect, respect for others, a knowledge of community living, education, reading, rationed TV, an understanding of why we were punnished when we did something wrong.
Teenage pregnancy doesn't always result in Shit children. Poverty, lack of education and lack of care does.