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bad children = bad parents?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
again im still home watching GMTV. they have a discussion following the conviction of the mother of truanting daughters. the argument is that the mother deserved to go to jail because her children follow her example and if she was a good mother then they would go to school how far is this true?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm pleased they locked her up, she was warned over and over again <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I also believe good parents = good kids, although their will always be exception to the rules <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    CAPITALS DEVIL
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I wagged school a lot, it was nothing to do with my parents, I just hated school.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You have to be responsible both to and for your children. It's as simple as that.

    However, I don't think removing the mother from the parent/child equation is going to help matters much.

    It's almost like the mother, who has clearly been rather lax in disciplining her children, has been given a little parenting holiday. Now there's an even better example for her kids - a mother in jail.... <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and kids who are now complaining that Mum is inside.

    Sorry guys but it is <STRONG>your</STRONG> fault.

    I really have no problem with this. By all accounts this woman has been given opportunities to affact the situation but has done nothing. Tough shit.

    Funny how the kids were at school yesterday though...first time for months apparently...

    BTW, I would question whether this woman is a <STRONG>parent</STRONG> or just the person who gave birth...

    [ 14-05-2002: Message edited by: Man Of Kent ]
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    There are so many other factors involved it is ridiculous to lay the entire blame for a childs behaviour at the parents door.

    How the hell was she supposed to MAKE her kids go to scholl anyway?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Another subject arising during the phone in:
    If a child gets pregnant because they feel it may add protection to the relationship. This is due to the reason that the parents have guided them to do this and it is entirely the parents fault. i think that certain things are the fault of the parents, but others are not. The woman whos children played truant was given many warnings and chances for help, advice and parenting classes but she refused all help, so therefore it is all her fault that she was unable to controll the children anyway.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is due to the reason that the parents have guided them to do this and it is entirely the parents fault

    Is that what they said on the phone in? *is confused* <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>There are so many other factors involved it is ridiculous to lay the entire blame for a childs behaviour at the parents door.

    How the hell was she supposed to MAKE her kids go to school anyway?</STRONG>
    What are these "other factors". Children learn how to behave from their parents, simple as that...it's only in adolescence that parental control is even questioned by the child. And even then, parents are not helpless.

    I don't know whether prison is the answer for this woman, but something needed to be done to sort out her family. I hope she sorts her act out before she ruins the lives of her children by letting them bum around rather than go to school.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Children spend most of their day at school, how can this fail to influence their personality, children constantly interact with other children and adults other then their parents, they watch TV, play computer games, read books and listen to music.

    Everything around a child is influencing it (and us) so how can you say it is just the parents?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Everything around a child is influencing it (and us) so how can you say it is just the parents?</STRONG>
    That's not quite what I meant. We are talking about skiving off school. Parents are most definitely responsible for making sure their kids get to school and stay there. Why make excuses for them? How can you blame TV or peer pressure for making children skive school? Parents need to take responsibility for their own children, teach them how to behave, and tell them what us expected of them. Without parental control, what can the schools be expected to do? Why would a child listen to a teacher and not a parent?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Children spend most of their day at school, how can this fail to influence their personality, children constantly interact with other children and adults other then their parents, they watch TV, play computer games, read books and listen to music.

    Everything around a child is influencing it (and us) so how can you say it is just the parents?</STRONG>

    When a set of parents choose to bring a child into thos world, it is their responsibilty, nobody eles's, they have control over that child.
    they watch TV

    Its a parents responsibilty to monitor what their children watch, they are ultimatley responsible for anything they learn from the tele, like wise what they read, play on and listen to.

    If I child isn't going to school, it is the fault of the parents and nobody else's, if they are incapable of commanding sufficent control over their children, that they can't make them go to school they are very bad parents.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>Children spend most of their day at school</STRONG>

    Er...not in this case.

    Isn't that the point <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    <STRONG>
    Everything around a child is influencing it (and us) so how can you say it is just the parents?</STRONG>

    Because a parent defines the morals and children don't start school when the are born - there is a <STRONG>very</STRONG> important gap.

    Like I said, giving birth only make her their mother, it doesn't mean she is a "parent"...Who is the [supposed] responsible adult in this scenario?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i think that if a child is really naughty then it is the parents problem. parents are responsable for their childrens actions. <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Remember that this woman refused to turn up to compulsory parenting classes, no-one can tell me that is a good example for her children.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with Toadborg... sinse when have parents had control over their kids? Some do, but I think the majority nowadays have very little control.

    I'm not referring to this particular case, I don't know the details, but I would imagine that most parents actually have very little control over what their children do. An increasing percentage of children are turning into rebels, who do not listen to their parents, or any authority figure. They will be more influenced by their friends and by what is percieved to be 'cool'. Unfortuantly, the worls is such that it is percieved to be cool to throw your life away by not getting an education.

    How is a parent supposed to force their rebel child to school?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If I had refused to go to school my mum would have walked me in and told a teacher to not let me out her sight. thank god i always went to school but parents do have a duty to make their child attend school.

    If I had started drugs my mum would have walked me to and from school and kept me in her sight 24-7. Im not saying this is the way but I have never disobeyed my parents probably because i respect them and know what would happen if i did. But there is no excuse for badly behaved children and it does make you wonder if a child is very naughty then it has to be the parents influence.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From that description, I'm probably quite naughty. I take drugs, and I miss quite a lot of lessons at college. I wouldn't blame my parents for that though. They don't even know most of the truth, and if they did, there would be nothing they could do about it.

    Children have to be giving at least a small amount of independence, IMHO, or they will not learn about the real world. If a child decides to miss a lot of school, then it is the child who should be punished for it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm with Devil - I know my parents would have done exactly the same had I done those things. And I didn't, which rather prooves the point, I think.

    Yes, children have to have some independence but attendance at school (for under 16's) is a legal obligation, and for good reason, I believe. Therefore it is not up to the child whether they attend school or not and if they do not then the parent must take the initiative and march them there if necessary.

    As much as I am normally against trials where people are punished relatively hard to make examples of them, I think this was needed in this case as there are too many other parents who don't care about their child's education. Hopefully some of them will now think twice. I've just heard that the mother has been refused bail. Good.

    I just hope that the two children involved don't start to take it all out on their poor teachers, now that they seem to be returning to school.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But you can't use physical force on a child therefore you can't "march" them to school. You are working on the premise that a child has basic respect for their parents but this may not be the case, the older child in this case was 15, fully capable of defying her mother.....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If I'd of been caught skiving, I'd off recieved a bloody hard smack, been banned from going out on an evening, watching tv and from going to football on a saturday.

    Needless to say, I went to school <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>But you can't use physical force on a child therefore you can't "march" them to school.</STRONG>

    Yes you can. You cannot use "excessive" force.

    <STRONG>
    You are working on the premise that a child has basic respect for their parents but this may not be the case, the older child in this case was 15, fully capable of defying her mother.....</STRONG>

    Why don't they respect her though? Could it be becasue they sense that no matter what they do, she will take no action?

    Respect is taught or earned it isn't a natural trait.
    Originally posted by Mindless:
    <STRONG>I take drugs, and I miss quite a lot of lessons at college.
    </STRONG>

    and what about school? remember the law now considers that you are old enough to make such decisions about attendance...

    <STRONG>
    Children have to be giving at least a small amount of independence, IMHO, or they will not learn about the real world. If a child decides to miss a lot of school, then it is the child who should be punished for it.
    </STRONG>

    I agree and no-one has suggested that chioldren aren't allowed independance, just that they are punished when they misbehave and that the parents are responsible for teaching them wrong from right.

    If they don't then the parents should be held accountable for that.

    This case (and our previous thread about removal of benefits) isn't about a single case of misbehaviour. It is about <STRONG>persistent</STRONG> law breaking and I'm sorry but when a child is under 16 they are still under the care of their parent/guardian.

    Have you ever considered that the reason that juvenile crime has increased is <STRONG>becuase</STRONG> or the liberal attitudes which always seeks excuses instead of punishment? Since the late 50s and 60s parents have been less and less strict when it comes to bad behaviour - don't you believe that this is contributory to the general decline in moral standards?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Once the parents have got the child to school it is the schools responsibility to make sure they stay there. like Ebb said punishing works if your serious about football or a certain hobby and it can be stopped just like that then a child would not be as willing to disobey their parents.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don’t know anything about the case other than what you guys have written thus far. Based on that, I think that if the girls are teens, since they haven’t yet learned about responsibility, now is the time to start.

    Their mother, good or bad, is over. She messed up and I doubt she can do much now. Although I think she needs to be punished if she didn’t do all in her power to comply with the law, locking her up won’t improve the situation--it won’t improve her parenting skills, it won’t make a more responsible daughters. Forget about her. It’s time to focus on girls.

    How will throwing the mother in jail teach the girls about responsibility or are they punishing the daughters as well?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    don't you believe that this is contributory to the general decline in moral standards?
    I think that is a conservative myth for a start....
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>[/qb]

    Have you ever considered that the reason that juvenile crime has increased is [qb]becuase</STRONG> or the liberal attitudes which always seeks excuses instead of punishment? Since the late 50s and 60s parents have been less and less strict when it comes to bad behaviour - don't you believe that this is contributory to the general decline in moral standards?[/QB]

    I don't seek excuses, I seek punishment. But punishment for the people who commit the crime. The children.

    I don't believe that physical force should be used on a child who is of the age to go to secondary school. It does no good. When it comes down to it, its up to the child. The parent should do their best to make their child go to school, but even if they drive them to school, what is to stop them leaving at the first instant. A teacher certainly can't use physical force of any kind.

    With regards to the parent dishing out punishment in the form of groundings or removal of pocket-money/football/whatever... my parents didn't let me go clubbing until I was 18 on the grounds that I was too young. It didn't stop me, I went for a year without them knowing. True, they could have kept me in every night, but is that really a good way to bring up a child? To keep them from any social interaction other than school?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Mindless all the way:
    <STRONG>I don't seek excuses, I seek punishment. But punishment for the people who commit the crime. The children.</STRONG>

    I would argue that the children aren't the only issue here though. There is parental responsibilty, enshrined in law, which enforces the ethic that children should be sent to school.

    In this case (and others) the parent has chosen not to do so. Thereby committing a crime. Hence punishment.

    What is the problem there?

    <STRONG>
    I don't believe that physical force should be used on a child who is of the age to go to secondary school. It does no good. When it comes down to it, its up to the child. The parent should do their best to make their child go to school, but even if they drive them to school, what is to stop them leaving at the first instant. A teacher certainly can't use physical force of any kind.</STRONG>

    I entirely agree. I would add though that you shouldn't <STRONG>need</STRONG> to use physical force by this stage, if you have acted as a parent in the earlier stages of the child's life.

    A preant can only do so much, and I am happy with those who <STRONG>do</STRONG> make the effort. However, there are people like this woman who just don't give a shit. If she doesn't take that parental responsibility seriously then the state should intervene.

    <STRONG>
    True, they could have kept me in every night, but is that really a good way to bring up a child? To keep them from any social interaction other than school?</STRONG>

    You seem to have taken me for a control freak <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> That's not the case. I know that my kids will mibehave, all children do. But the difference is taht I will punish them if they do, other parents don't. What lesson are they teaching their children?

    It is those parents who we need to remind of what responsibilty is...
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>I think that is a conservative myth for a start....</STRONG>

    What is a myth? that there has been a decline in moral standards or that liberal attitudes have contributed?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really don't think that there has been a decline in moral standards, were you thinking of any cases in particular MoK?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg:
    <STRONG>I really don't think that there has been a decline in moral standards, were you thinking of any cases in particular MoK?</STRONG>
    roflol <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Underage sex
    Teenage pregnancy
    Alcohol abuse by teenagers
    Single-parent families
    Drug abuse (hard & soft)

    Sorry if it doesn't suit your ultra-PC ideals, but the truth hurts <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ok, I see your point that a parent should try to control theor children at least, but if they don't, is a 60 day jail sentance not too harsh, considering it leaves the children parentless for that amount of time.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Underage sex
    Teenage pregnancy
    has always happened as far as I know and I wouldn't say either are "immoral". In ages gone by girls got married at 12 and had kids at 13 without any questions being raised...

    Likewise drinking and drug abuse have always been present and I would question the immorality of both these actions....

    Is being a single-parent immoral? <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I'm not quite sure what high-moral plateau we are supposed to have come off?
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