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I suggest you read a lot more history before you try arguing this point. Not just Vietnam, either.
In the case of Vietnam, the two sides were still at each others throats and the only thing that changed was the third party pulling out. The fighting continued a few months later.
Please tell me where my historical knowledge is lacking.
Now, what is the exact time limit?..
Because if you do a bit of reading, you'll find that Britain has claimed to win many wars even though the "enemy" received their goals as soon as 1 day after hostilities ceased.
Did you even bother to read my above post? I explained the differences. Its not just time but circumstance as well..Do me the common courtest of reading my posts.
I dont give a flying fuck about British claims to anything Sean. You really do have a one track mind.
Hmmmm...kind of like Vietnam...
The US were the ones who had a large number of military bases wiped out during the Tset ceasefire. Not the North.
By definition a loser is the first one to pack up and go home. The north were willing to stay until the last man. The US wasn't. End of story.
The intent of the US is not the same as UK... we do not conquer, occupy, subjugate, and enslave. We had NO intent to occupy VN, so your simplistic definition is TOTALLY inapplicable to the US.
And WHAT US bases were "wiped out" during the "Tset" offensive? The Viet Cong were virtually destroyed, and the NVA badly beaten. More of your delusions? ...or simply, again, say ANYTHING to "support" your ignorance?
You say that the US military, by way of its "ineptness", "lost" in VN.
Only in your wetdreams...
Germany punted you Brits from Europe, pushed you literally into the ocean, and had Hitler had a little patience, or the US waited a little longer before propping you up, the German rockets would have sunk your little island into the sea.
The US CHOSE to leave VN, while holding the upper hand. Hitler FORCED you to leave, and you ran for your lives. HUGE difference... Pull YOUR head out of YOUR ass before you start pointing out pathetic ineptness...
You personally DEFINE Brit arrogance...
Gutless cowardly sheep as YOU got their way... had we been turned loose, we would have scorched the earth to the Chinese border. As was posted by another veteran of that time and place, it WAS a slaughter house, and it was NOT the US getting slaughtered, something YOU and your nation should be extremely familiar with...
[ 20-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
No, you bully. Like the biggest kid in the schoolyard..but that's a different agrument for a different time...
and I would arguem about subjugation too...
Aye, Whowhere needs to check his history books. Whilst the offensive surprised many in the US military who thought that the VC couldn't mount such an organised and widespread attack, it was a huge defeat for them.
</STRONG>
A little too simplistic, but your point is taken. The UK was on the verge of defeat and many appeasers (including Joseph P Kennedy, US Ambassador) thought that we should sue for peace. Thankfully the US President had bigger balls than that and supported us - though only supplies at the time. The actual fighting carried on for nearly two years before you sent any troops.
May 1940 Dunkirk
December 1941 Pearl Harbour
Point still remains that the US helped us in our time of need, and we have never forgotten that (well not all of us..), which is why we stick by you now.
</STRONG>
If you forget that the South Vietnam Govt was falling apart.
But WHY did the US choose to leave? Not because they had achieved their goals, but because support was lost at home.
The NVA/VC didn't win the war on the battle fields of Vietnam, the US lost it on home soil...
</STRONG>
Turned loose by who exactly? Surely you mean your own Govt...
######################
<STRONG>Sean K</STRONG> - Define uniform, then. Does it have to be combat fatigues or could it mean that all combatants should war similar clothing, like the Mujahadeen do...
Sorry, but I still believe that the US are trying to subvert the GC to suit their own ends, so that they can exact retribution for Sept 11th. Whilst I can understand their motives, I would question the wisdom - do they really need to create anymore martyrs...look at Bobby Sands as an example...
Affirmative!
Although you (MoK) and I are generally on opposite sides of contention, I am glad that SOMEONE here has the ability to comprehend SOMETHING of reality. The issue of contention here was a certain pizzant stating that the US military is pathetic, as in "losing the VN war". Still, there IS a difference between losing, and having it given away. The US armed forces did NOT lose the conflict in VN: ARVN was routed after we vacated the AO. Many of the tribes within VN were betrayed along with the US military by the gutless sheep within the general population, and then the politicians.
btw ~ I am NO fan of ANY of the Kennedy's. Ever read "Profiles In Courage" by JFK? His main issue is that the politicians must have the courage to do what is best for the general public, REGARDLESS of what the public wants, because the sheep are too stupid to know what's best for them. From the rum-runner and thief patriarc DOWN, they ALL run counter to my own beliefs. (So much for ME being a "sheep" because I believe everything my government tells me. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> )
Personally, I believe that FDR held the US out of WW2 for as long as he could because the general population IS too gutless to fight a long war. Our WARRIORS lack NOTHING, but to fight in someone else's yard, the sheep have not the requisite attention span... witness the student rebellion in the 60's. The sheep of THIS country are no different from the sheep of the UK: gutless! They fail to comprehend that freedom and safety come at the price of CONSTANT VIGILENCE. You cannot talk when the other side is going to arms... They cannot comprehend that the price of defending a position is PAID IN BLOOD! Does not mean I like nor enjoy war, but I am aware of what it entails. Sheep want someone else to do the dirty work, because they believe themselves too special to be soiled by reality...
[ 20-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Why the heck should I give my life for a purpose witch isn’t right like Vietnam? The American army went in Vietnam not because for the sake of Vietnam people but because they where afraid that other country’s in Asia will take the same road as Vietnam. But as you see after more then 30 years the paranoia of the American government was wrong and Vietnam is trying now to change the road to a more Democratic way. Yes I agree about a war like WW2 is a just cause to fight. But not every time Is the cause right. And you are talking about people who doubt the war as sheep, what kind a view is that. Are you a trigger happy? Are enjoying seeing people die or what?
That's not what he argues at all. What he said was that the general public usually don't have the stomach for a long fight, that eventually the appeasers and the sympathisters become the loudest voices - and Vietnam is a prime example of that. Remember that Ho Chi Minh predicted that the US would find that their problems at home were greater than those they faced on the battle field...
I also take his comments about Kennedy. Not a family I have a great deal of time for, although the manner of their undoing is interesting - two assassinations, one drunken car journey.
Kennedy really proved what I have always said about the ruling elite - the thought that they know what is best for us, and that they should implement it whether we like it or not. Though Thanatos and I come from different directions we often reach the same conclusion - basically that you Govt is out to screw you at every oppotunity, and that you need to remain vigilant. Though he chooses to arm himself with lethal weapons, I prefer information. An informed public is a dangerous thing - why else do Govts view the internet with concern?
</STRONG>
Are you suggesting that the gradual spread of communism was something which should have gone uinchecked, something which threatened US interests (and ours if you think it through), throughout Asia?
It wasn't just the US who committed forces at this time to the fight, the Aussies sent troops to Vietnam too, and we fought in Malaysia.
<STRONG>30 years on</STRONG> and that fact that <STRONG>Vietnam is changing </STRONG>are the important points there, what that actually proves is that the US was correct, that eventually even the more devout find that freedom is better than Govt control.
Guess it depends on what you consider a just cause. Personally I like the freedoms granted to me under what we laughingly call democracy...
VERY likely, the REASON that the whole of SE Asia did NOT fall to Communism is that we confronted the enemy ON THEIR TURF! LIKELY, the whole of Europe did not fall BECAUSE the US (with help from it's allies) DEMONSTRATED that we were willing to take it to the ultimate moment! Again... go read history on the wonderful effect your Chamberlin had upon Hitler. You let it gather speed and momentum, and it costs ALOT more flesh and blood to get it stopped. "Appeasement" is for those who have not the dignity nor pride to resist slavery.
Its not about "liking" war, it is about being ready, willing and COMMITTED to taking a stand, and valuing something beyond your selfish little life. Tens of thousands of my brothers died in that place, and countless others were maimed, and we did it FOR A REASON!
Would YOU rather be living under Hitler's Third Reich? I would not want to live under Mao's rule. Either you are still so young as to not value anything beyond yourself, or you are so cowardly that you would support the enemy over your own people...
SOMEONE has to toe the line, and SOME, whether Brit OR American, WILL stand that post, because the alternative is for our nations to be wiped from the earth.
Basic enough for your limited comprehensive skills?
The ONLY protection for our First Amendment (the "right" to freedom of speech)comes from our Second Amendment (the "right" for the individual CITIZEN to keep and bear arms). I use quotation marks, because IF you read Jefferson, Mason, Adams, Franklin, etc... READ what they actually WROTE, in their own words, a citizen has not the "right" to exercise these "freedoms", but the RESPONSIBILITY.
Without the "teeth", the ABILITY to tear down a non-responsive or tyrranical government, all of the "freedom of speech means SQUAT! I concur with those who founded THIS nation that the power should REMAIN within the PEOPLE, NOT with the government.
PERSONALLY, I would prefer that ALL nations of this world might be able to chose their own path, choose by the spoken will of their individual EDUCATED "citizens". That INCLUDES the UK! <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Point of Clarification ~ It is not merely the US government, nor the Brit government which I distrust... it is ALL government! Government exist for the ability to force the will of those who govern upon those who are subject to that government; and those who govern, REGARDLESS of where they are from, or what system they take advantage of, are their for their OWN PERSONAL INTEREST! Altruism, as far as politicians, is BULLSHIT! They are there to exploit the system to their OWN benefit.
If you doubt THAT, then we have prima facie evidence as to your species! Bah, bah, baaaahh!
{edit: the last point was directed NOT at MoK in particular, but to ALL! Didn't want you to think I was picking on you, MoK! <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> }
[ 21-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
As much as I wish to refrain from insults .... here goes: you insolent little puke - the US was plenty willing and had the means to do it - but I m inclined to agree with ThaNatos - our forces were ordered out because of the pathetic political whims from back home - they ran most of the war from DC as opposed to inside Vietnam, resulting not only in heavy US losses but a war that was almost as delusional as the hippy retards who stayed home smoking pot and hiding like cowards in Canada.
Additionally - look again at your history - the US, despite the surprise attack and heavy casualties, won most of the battles surrounding Tet and was able to later win back what they lost - my own father is a case in point, having served in Hue (Marine). WHile his antitank batallion (ONTOS) and support suffered greviously, they were still able to stay and repel the NVA advance - some loss huh.
Had we been able to stay and fight, you little coward, Vietnam would be a beautiful US controlled vacation paradise.