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Harm to their country - Who, the harm already came to their country when the Taliban refused to cooperate and hand over the dirtbags - aditionnaly, noones been tortured - its just been suggested.
Everyone hates us? my lord! Im so upset over this one indeed! WHo hates us? those we supply billions of dollars to in aid each year or those we smack around in rightful police actions? WHowere, do you hate us too? Why, if I thought you werent my friend, I..I just couldnt bear it... <IMG alt="image" SRC="frown.gif" border="0">
"someone once said to me that evil things happen because the good guys do nothing"
And ditto to Devilman and Tricky. Its about time someone gets a freakin' clue.
Yes, many foreign countries despise the US for many reasons, but I don't think it has to do with our idea of liberty and democracy, not in the sense of the way we think it means. Its because in the past decade, US representatives have taken it upon themselves to get wrapped up in issues that we probably should have not had any involvement in. We used our democracy to shove it in someone else's face. Clinton is a prime example...and to tie it in with go_away's statement (and no, Clinton was a jackass, not a good guy): look at how he involved the US with Palestinian issues and it hasn't really helped but to have both the the Israelies and Palestinians despise us even more. 9-11 happened because terrorist attacks like the embassy bombing in Africa and the bombing of the USS Cole went unpunished and do I dare say, unnoticed. Instead of taking action, like Bush has with the Taliban, Clinton turned the other cheek...not even a slap on the hand. Its disgusting. He wanted every freaking country to be like us that he forgot that we aren't as powerful as we may seem and lost site of the whole picture.
Cant blame him though, I had a one track gutter when I was goin thru puberty. I didnt care if the whole universe collapsed, I wanted to get laid, NOW. <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="cool.gif" border="0">
It is worth noting that the GC states that ANY person taking up arms in defence of their country, or captured during an armed conflict, must be treated as a POW unless a court can prove otherwise. It makes no difference that the Afghans hadn't signed up to the convention, becuase it also says that only one party must be a signatory...
Also worth noting is the fact that the UN can charge each member of OBLs terrorist group with crimes against humanity - for committing or being an accessory to the deaths of non-combatants - an offence which can carry the death penalty...surely the perfect face saving outcome for the US...
Whyd you think theyve locked them up in Gitmo bay? We dont neeeeed noo steeeeeekiiin constitution in cooooooba.
Not US soil so they arent protected by the Constitution <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Whats democracy got to do with anything? The system of government in America only applies to Americans. Nobody claims that democracy applies to the rest of the world, same way nobody claims that communism applies to the rest of the world.
Who cares if they show double standards...What are you gonna do? They are the most powerful country on earth and can do anything they damn well please.
Stop moaning and live with it.
A US base ISN'T US soil? So how can they stop the Cubans from walking all over it?
So when Bush was talking about 'This is an attack on democracy' he wasn't referring to the WTC attack but the US retalliation?
Democracy is the whole moral basis for the US reaction. Without that they would just be terrorists like their foe.
If you remember I openly supported US actions, happily shouting down the appeasers and continue to do so. However, I also pointed out that US policy contributed to the WTC attack and this action will only increase the support for Al Qaeda and muslim fundamentalists worldwide.
Personally I would like to see them treated as POW and then put on trial in the Hague. We cannot claim that we are better than these scum, if we then behave like them.
They can stop the Cubans from walking all over it because they leased the place from mr Castro and they have big fences and lots of guns. Do you have a better explaination as to why they took them to Cuba of all places?
Democracy isnt something between two groups as bogo said. What has democracy got to do with the way the US is prosecuting the war. Its a military action, not an ideological one.
think about it devilman, of course they won't have as high a vote count if they aren't allowed, dumbass. they couldnt vote for half of the last century, and for the other half republican crackers have beeen tryin to stop them.
actually, the black vote is increasing for the Rebublican party - has been for several years. statistically speaking though, blacks in the US DO consititute the LOWEST turnout every election. Again - proof my dear friend is needed - the Republicans arent trying to stop anyone from voting..perhaps more shameful though was Gore's delegates in FL passing out cigarettes to homeless citizens in an effort to get them to vote as well as the last minute "revelation" that Bush had a DUI conviction in Maine in 1976.
i can't give u proof bush cheated- would that i could- but if u took time to think about it youd see that his brother is the governor of florida, and -whoops!- not as many black (DEMONCRAT) voters this year gore, sorry! Plus theres the whole 'no recount- its unconstitutional' bull from the supreme court. RIGHT, i see your point now, no way he cheated.
Wow - you sound like every Democrat friend I have implying Jeb rigged the election. Again you offer no proof of this so your argument is invalid. I can offer proof though 2 recounts 1 official and one done by an independant group proved Bush won the election in FL. ~sorry~ How about the fact that Bush carried FL's Miami - Cuban vote - Cubans, most notably and historically REPUBLICAN, voted Bush. Perhaps the image of an INS agent pointing an MP5 at Elian Gonzales was the ultimate campaign photo for "democrat" Cuban Americans.
the israel situation was brewing befor ethe gulf war, but bin ladn wasn't, not until he join the OTHER bush's CIA. only after this did he decide to leave his millions of dollars and beautiful women behind to kill people.
~huh?~ The CIA involvement was a huge mistake that Bush JR has nothing to do with - in fact he's advocating less involvement in such affairs. Aside from this our involvement in Afghanastan before, however flawed had some good intentions - Bin Laden going berzerk afterwards wasnt something we could have forseen...what are you talking of with the Beautiful women thing?
bush would have turned the other cheek to african embassies and uss whatevers a thousand times over, because its not our home. gore would have sent in troops, carpet bombing etc. too, because new york and washington are our homes.
Hmm seeing as how Bush wasnt in office for the Cole attack or the Embassy bombing, its hard to tell what his reaction would have been. We do however know how Clinton and the Dems reacted though - ignoring 17 dead sailors on the Cole (get some respect moron!) and launching a few cruisse missiles at the Sudan in response to the Khobar bombings (a shewd ploy mainly to divert attn to monicagate). Somehow you suggest Clinton or Bore would have handled this better? the proof of that is in their previous "handling" of similar situations - POOR!
and if bush is doing such a great job, why r we sittin here arguing about his policies? and dont call me boy.
Well, boy we're arguing because well, we can. In the other post I called you kid - but "boy" will suffice if you please.
[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: Mr. HHHHHHAAAANNNNNNN ][/QB][/QUOTE]
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[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: DevilMan ]
"Ok people with all this talk, take a look at American's and please tell me where is the Democracy . Which kind af Democracy permits this attitude it's ok for us to do it, but if you do it's wrong. You guys are sow double moral.
In the US military, there is no democracy. Everything is based on the GC and standard regulation. Hell, and even in war...all regulation goes out the window anyway.
Not US citizens, so NO constitutional issue...
ONE MILLION ILLEGAL aliens voted in California during the last election, courtesy of Gore and the Democratic party. Illegal aliens have only the RIGHT of DEPORTATION!
US servicemen overseas were denied their vote by Gore and the Democratic party.
The Fiasco in Florida was the result of a whining Gore, and the Democratic party. If anyone made the attempt to subvert and steal the election, it was whiney boy, the "pro-gun" politico from Tennessee who became the "gun-grabber"... And REMEMBER, Gore claims to have "invented the internet", amongst his other PROVEN lies... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
{NOT directed at Balddog}... ANY of you self proclaimed "experts" on what is happening, or happened within the US actually LIVE here? <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Or are you simply repeating the drivel poured into your heads from your controllers? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
bin Laden and his little band called the music, and then the dance was brought to them. If you can't run with the Big Dogs, y'all had better cease the INCESSANT YAPPING, lest you wake him up. What comes to bin Laden and co. is what they asked for, even if it is not what they expected...
[ 17-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Actually, I thought it was to his credit that he chose not to address you as "little girl". Comport yourself as a "man", rather than a self possessed little princess, and you might receive a modicum of respect.
[ 17-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
I accept that Al Qaeda fired the first 'shot' in this conflict, however the people your Govt/Military holds in Cuba were not arrested in your country, but as a direct result of armed conflict in another conflict. According to the Geneva Convention they therefore have the right to be treated as POWs until the US can PROVE that they should be considered as anything else. This has yet to be done. Neither can the US prove that every person detained is a member of AL Qaeda, just that they were detained in Afghanistan whilst fighting against the US and their allies.
Personally I have no sympathy for the people but the US rightly claimed the moral high ground following the WTC attack. They were able to claim that their actions were fair and honest - but this isn't what is apparently the case now.
We were all outraged by the Sept 11th attacks, and the UK rightly stood behind the US and proved that a real friend will stand by you in your hour of need no matter what the cost. However, if the US doesn't treat these prisoners in accordance with their rights then the US is no better than they are.
The US consitution claims that it is the right of any of its citizens to take up arms in their defence - and you have claimed that this is actually a right which should be universal, regardless of nation. You describe us as sheep for having the gall to suggest anything else. Yet here we have you Govt/Military detaining people who have done precisely that.
PROVE that any of these people have connections to the terrorists in a court of law (not Bush's law, but international law) and you will have the support of the free thinking world. Detain them and deny them their right and you will only prove that what OBL and others have said is true...
btw... Afgan-land is a military engagement, not a "civil" moment is East LA... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
GWB stated it so very clearly... "You are either with us, or against us..." No little bullshit word games... You are with us, or against us.
Taliban gave aid and refuge to al qaeda, and refused to give them up, even when presented with the evidence. They chose their side. They BOTH (taliban & jihad boys) thought they could piss on us with impunity.
Error. BIG fucking error.
Whine and snivel all you want: I could NOT care less. It is seen by al qaeda as PROOF of your gutlessness. Much YOU need to learn about preditors of their ilk. They opened the dialogue in their chosen language, but WE SHALL get the last word.
You are the type that would wag your finger and scold a Rottweiler with rabies; I am not. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Most of the difference between you and me... you prefer to fight with words, and I prefer a rifle. Who do you think would outlast the other? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> Who do you think al qaeda would attack first, your words or my rifle? They may well hate me... but they are disgusted by you...
If you are really inflamed by how "unfair" it all is, al qaeda is still active, still fighting, and still recruiting. Perhaps it is time for you to chose your side, and take up the fight. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
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OO-RAH!!! Iz thet be close 'nuff? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Of course we are with you, we have been from the start, and like it or not you farce of a campaign wouldn't have happened without our help.
Everything you have just said proves that the USA is hypocritical. The Taliban had to make 2 choices. Side with the USA or Al-Qaeda. At the time it saw Al-Qaeda as the lesser of 2 evils and sided with them. This doesn't make the Taliban terrorist, and it is wrong to treat the prisoners like they are.
If the USA continues defying international laws it will slowly discover it's allies drifting away until it stands alone in its war against terrorism. And don't give us any shit about you not needing us. If it wasn't for our territories in the Middle East or our refuelling planes you'd be in a heap of shit. The fact that you can't even fly helicopters without crashing them during TRAINING shows how efficient you are at fighting wars.
One you remove these men from the war zone, it ceases to be war. You cannot patrol the streets of New York with loaded weapons, and shoot on sight any remotely Arabian looking people. It's not a combat zone. Neither is Cuba.
These men perhaps do not deserve a fair trial. If, and it's a big if, the US can PROVE BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that they are Al-Quaeda, then shoot the lot of 'em. Do what the hell you want. No-one will bat an eyelid.
BUT
Until that point, the USA must continue to exemplify fairness and justice. If it does not, it will rapidly find its allies support wavering, because it will then appear as an aggressor.
..and you have such a wealth of experiece and expertise from WHERE? Video games?
Mouthy pizzant.
I suggest that you extract your head from your anal repository and get a glimpse of reality. "Farce of a campaign?" Better you should be on the front line. You present yourself as another jihad johnnie.
And you deserve nothing more than the SAME damned fate...
Sympathy for the poor oppressed taliban? Forget what they are and what they have done to their own country? The DEFINE terrorist.
Perhaps you should do your masturbating in private... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
So... what would YOU do with them? How about we ship them to YOUR hometown, where YOU can hobnob with them? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> Of course, that would mean that we would turn the UK into a prison camp.
Like that better?
I have my experience from flying light aircraft on a regular basis while I was in the cadets. I also know that our armed forces are not so poorly trained to think that doing however many situps a day is a good thing. While you are doing your "rep" our troops are doing real training. I know this from personal experience, and I also know that from tests conducted a few years ago, our regular troops are better trained with more discipline than your special forces.
There is no mistaking who's side I am on. I am on Britain's side. I always have been and I always will be, so please do me the credit of not doubting my political allegiance. You seem to be in the habit of mis-intepreting all my posts, something that the other members don't do, so we'll "assume" that it is just you trying to make trouble, and to ignore the argument completely.
I personally think the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are scum. However the difference between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, here it is:
The Taliban are a government, their bully boys are soldiers, and they DIDNT blow up the WTC.
Treat the terrorists how you like, I don't care. However I'm sure as a soldier you must realise that you yourself could one day be put in the same posistion as the Afghan troops you are holding. The Taliban detainees are POWS. The idea of a POW and how they should be treated is one of the fundamental ideas of the Geneva convention. Each POW cannot be held responsible for the actions of his or her government, and cannot be held responsible for any orders that they are made to carry out. By shooting at American troops they were not being terrorists. They were being soldiers, fighting in the defence of their home. In much the same way as you are doing. This means they should not be treated like criminals.
[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Whowhere ]
If I remember my history correctly, the USA raised hell when US prisoners were held in conditions similar to what you are presently holding the Taleban and Al-Quaeda fighters in.
Now, then.... where was that?
Their last big cock up...I mean "war". i think it was called the Gulf??
Brit version "kiddie corps"? Well THAT makes you a battle-hardened combat vet, don't it? lmfao!
ROTFLMFAO!
Taliban are a bunch of extremist/terrorists who were students and thought they could stuff their view down everyone's throat within their own country. Being that it was within their OWN country, the US was generally "hand's off" until the acts of terrorism which they supported or participated in came to our shores.
Taliban was recognized as the legitimate government of Afgan-land by HOW MANY nations? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> Well, they MUST be the legit gubbermint, 'cause YOU say they be...
once again, ROTFLMFAO!
Yer gettin' more pathetic all the time... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
No, not soldiers representing a LEGITIMATE government, but terrorists, ESPECIALLY within their own country. Y'all need a civics lesson? Y'all forget so easily what they have done to Afgans???
Just because the Taliban weren't democratically elected doesn't make them a government.
The overthrow of a ruler has happened hundreds of times in countries all over the world. In case you forget it nearly happened in America, or is your history a little rusty? What would have happened if the confederates won and gained their independence? Would you have recognised their government? What about Pakistan? You are allied with them, but General Mushareef is in power because he overthrew the previous ruler.
You can't take your logic and apply it to only one country while completely ignoring other examples that you convientently ignore.
As for the cadets, thing, maybe it doesn't make me a battle hardened "vet", however you knew anything you would know that the cadets over here is one step below the military. It is a jumping point, where you can taste life in the armed forces, but you don't have to get killed. But of course you don't know anything so you wouldn't know that.
Howdy MoK! Long time no see!
I have to acknowledge that the citizens in the US don't always get to see what the rest of the world watch on their television and hear what's on their radio. What is it that yalls are hearing and watching about these proceedings? From what we're seeing here ( if anyone disagrees, please correct me), these members of the Taliban and al Quaida (sp?) are getting fed food that does not violate their ethnic beliefs. They are getting housed in cells or cages that are larger than what they have back in their home country for prisoners. In other words, the US is following their ethnic standards or better. To do otherwise would be considered to be not ethnically sensitive, right? There must be some kind of security over these people because of their sworn oath to kill westerners at any moment that’s given by Allah. Have you heard of any abuse of the prisoners? I haven’t heard of any. This could be a case of our press not informing us of this happening, or an anti-American media fabricating stories. This is very possible and it does happen with-in the US as well as around the world. I’m interested in the proof of their words also. Let’s face it, if enough people said you walked around with purple spiked hair, people will start believing the lie. (watch, I just stuck my foot in my mouth; You don’t wear purple spiked hair, do you? If so, reword the above to "reverse mohawk". No offense meant to anyone.) I’m wondering if someone, you or us, is getting fed propaganda. I’m also very interested in what the Red Cross has to say after their inspection. This "he said, she said" crap does nothing but tears allies apart. Let’s sit back and listen to the first hand knowledge.
Cheerios!