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US is blind
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Lately i have seen George Bush sayin to the Congress and to the american people that the terrorist hate American because it's freedom, Democracy and liberty.
In all my life i have never heard a person wich said well let's have dictatorship let ou goverment kill us and torture us.
Americans keep forgeting the history over and over again. Most people in the middle east are angry at america ( by america it's not the american people but it's polcy )because the issue with the palestinians issue the american presence in middle east not only in Saudi Arabia but also in other country's.
But mostly people see evry day people killed by the israelis and with the support of the american goverment.
This is why there is terrorist like Osama Bin Landen. And no i don't support what he has done to the twin towers.
Things aren't always Black and White. People ges't dont wake up one morning and say what a nice they to blow my self up sow that someday people in the us should not democracy.
Before you can understand the terrorist you have to pick up a history book and read.
In all my life i have never heard a person wich said well let's have dictatorship let ou goverment kill us and torture us.
Americans keep forgeting the history over and over again. Most people in the middle east are angry at america ( by america it's not the american people but it's polcy )because the issue with the palestinians issue the american presence in middle east not only in Saudi Arabia but also in other country's.
But mostly people see evry day people killed by the israelis and with the support of the american goverment.
This is why there is terrorist like Osama Bin Landen. And no i don't support what he has done to the twin towers.
Things aren't always Black and White. People ges't dont wake up one morning and say what a nice they to blow my self up sow that someday people in the us should not democracy.
Before you can understand the terrorist you have to pick up a history book and read.
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Comments
i dont want to get into a twisted debate on foreign policy but someone once said to me that evil things happen because the good guys do nothing
im not sure if i agree with the statement since the us gives a hellava lot of aid and stuff
They are not meant to be history lessons that show the US faults (while personally I think that the US admiting its faults and going in through moderation would be a much better idea...). Rather they are supposed to be justifications of the war to the American people.
So while still laughable and highly patriotic they're not at all ignorant.
It's one thing saying that the US stands for freedom, democracy and liberty (which I believe it does), but to neglect to let the US populace know why these Al-Qaeda hate the US so much is to divide the world since the US citizens will not see the bad effects the US has arguably had on parts of the world.
Personally I think that the US should admit that it's screwed up in the past and enter into negotiations with some of the Muslim countries.
I also think that it's quite screwed up when you think that as soon as issues arose between Pakistan and India, Britain was in there saying "war is wrong" when they're currently involved in a war themselves and also have a somewhat similar problem in Northern Ireland.
Overall, I'm just glad that I'm not a politician and can safely judge from the sidelines.
The Northern Ireland conflict is different though. It is now more about the stubbornness of the two political views, rather than an actual grievance they have with the British government. And in fairness, Britain doesn't really get involves where it can avoid it in NI. Most of the stuff occurs between the two terrorist sides and not the British Army.
Probably should start a new post for this but it seems to lead nicely from this- in the same way that the US tends to deny any responsibility in the terrorists hatred of them, it seems that Britian ignores its role in creating the conflict between Pakistan and India. Do you think that Britain is involving itself primarily out of guilt or is it genuine concern?
What is there to negotiate? they killed us. Im all for pulling our support out of Israel and letting them and the Arabs kill themselves off but thats about all. Iraq - we'll gladly lift the sanctions when Hussein respects the no fly zones and allows weapons inspectors in - no sooner. Any suffering resulting from the legal embargo is Husseins fault and the fault of his ego.
For some reason they don't think that the Taliban soldiers who were fighting to defend their government are prisoners of war. Of course they are POW's, and they should be treated as such.
Yes but in their eyes it's a war on terrorism, and terrorists. Hence no nice POW treatment but harsh prison like regimes. Plus they're probably working out some frustratiion on them.
But the Taliban soldiers weren't terrorists. And if the Taliban did the same thing, claiming the USA were terrorists then everyone would be mad. What makes the US soldiers different from the Afghan ones? They were both fighting for a way of life and in defence of their countries.
How about we put them up in a flat in Chelsey... or perhaps Nottingham. Y'all can bump shoulders and share a chuckle whilst doing yore grocery shopping... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Perhaps you need to "grow up" and come to grips with reality. "War" is not the same in the real world as it is in your video game fantasies. The consequences of war are not just the frustration of losing yore coin to the archade machine... <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
...And you WONDER why we call you sheep? <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
WASHINGTON — Shaves, duct tape and bagels.
As 30 more al-Qaeda and Taliban prisoners joined 20 already being held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Monday, those were among the details emerging about their new lives as captives of the United States:
Guards shaved the heads and beards of the prisoners. An official said that they were infested with lice and there was no place to delouse them in Afghanistan. The decision was made for "safety and hygiene" reasons, said Marine Lt. Col. Dave Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman, "not to embarrass" them.
But Aly Abuzaakouk of the American Muslim Council said such treatment is humiliating for conservative Muslims, such as the Taliban. "I don't think it is appropriate to cut somebody's beard, which they believe is religiously mandated," he said.
Military guards on transfer flights have duct tape to restrain unruly prisoners. All the prisoners have made the 27-hour trip to Cuba shackled to their seats. A detainee on the first flight was taped down. Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said the measures are needed because the prisoners are extremely dangerous.
The prisoners are being given a breakfast of bagels and cream cheese — a food that is rare in the Arab Middle East.
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Thought you would enjoy this. No prison in US is anything like the Gitmo detention center for terrorist...there would be no end to the civil rights law suits were it so.
The islamics are being treated much better than they deserve and really have nothing coming...no 70 virgins, no honey in heaven, bla, bla, bla.
They will get MDA in their food until they sing like canaries, and when they can tell no more; a drumhead courts martial, followed immediately by a hanging with hogs hair rope with a bag of USDA Hog Guts around their neck...to be opened onto them when they are buried...killed for crimes in this life, spiritually in the next.
No, we're really not nice people in a fight...we will win even if we have to kill every last one of them to make it so.
Anyway, it gives you something to talk about, and talk about, and talk, and talk...but that is about all!
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
Actually whowere, theres a mix of both Taliban and Al Qaeda prisoners aboard the transport. Because the Taliban sponsored and harbored terrorists in their own borders, they are subject to the same interrogation as the Al Qaeda prisoners -
Torture, beatings? Doubtful really. I'm sure theyre being treated in accordance with the Geneva convention rules so as to avoid annoying scorn from liberals who'd drone on incessantly about "rights."
Defend their way of life? their government? One that isnt recognized by anyone except Iraq? Afghanistan is not ruled by a government but by a cruel religious dictatorship unworthy of recognition - you call this a "way of life?"
Personally, I wish the Marines had a few chances to whack them around but thats just me. How are you going to feel when they're tried by tribunal and *gasp* maybe even executed? Beleive me, Whowere, the treatment theyre recieving and the treatment they desperately deserve are definitely 2 differnt things.
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But torturing and executing the members of the Taliban goes against every rule of war. The soldiers were the soldiers of a government defending a nation. They should be treated as such. As for cutting their beards and hair for "hygiene" reasons. That is a load of crap, you can get rid of lice e.t.c by using a COMB.
He is arguing that the Taliban soldiers are PoW's because they were captured whilst fighting for the Taliban and not committing actual terrorist acts.
And I see his point.
"treated as such" fine - But I submit that the Taliban supported Al Qaeda and bin Laden and in doing so directly supported terrorism and the Al Qaeda agenda and should be treated as such. If they have critical knowledge of certain whereabouts of a certain dirtbag, then yes imprison them and force the information - no CREDIBLE reports however suggest that torture has in fact occured.
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Shaving their beards? <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> wow Id love to have seen their faces when they did that! It is however in the Geneva Convention accords so no, theyre not being demoralized unfairly, just legally. <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
While the Al-Queda members can be tortured until they squeal like small girls, I think the Taliban soldiers should be treated as soldiers. The only possible exception being the high ranking Taliban, Mullah omar et al.
The Taliban, however disgusting we may find their regime, are soldiers. They should be treated the same as you would wish any captured US soldiers to be treated. They should not be tortured, they should be kept in decent conditions and they should be released when the war is over.
The beard issue is just basic hygeine. You cant comb out lice when they have infested your whole body. You also cant comb a foot long beard that hasnt been cut in a lifetime. They will have to live with their newly shorn faces, but they have to live.
Well I am sure that in the future some American soldiers will be capture by an enemy force and threaten the same way. And I can just see in the media asking why do they threat the prisoners like that we never have done it sow. And the sad think is that the Americans who always say we are always the good guys we don't ever do anything wrong. Well hello people everything has reaction.
It aint the easiest read.
The WTC was a direct result of our backing a nation state. Right or wrong that is most likely the cause of 9-11-01.
The question of why is he selling the war to the American public is easy.
Because we were attacked directly and hard.
Our response is going to be less direct and much, much harder. We will topple gvts just like the blokes on that little island.
Our response/ Is it any different than when Mrs Thatcher sent the Royal marines and Navy to take back another little island off the coast S.America?
Our response will change the shape of the political world and it might not be for the better, but by God we will not sit back and get shanked by radical fundamentalists.
We will spank someone and thank Allah, that we have a President that aint turning the other cheek. If Gore would have been in office...........man, that is scary, a bunch of halfhearted missions that will get our boys hurt.
Right now we are kicking ass and taking names and we aint done. Make no mistake we will make the radicals madder and even furious, but the world stage is changing and we have a clear purpose. Exterminate bugs
[ 15-01-2002: Message edited by: Tricky314 ]
Torture is widely used in several countries with some effectiveness. Not that its happening here in the US, but it has been talked of as an ultimate last resort.
I dont think though itd be used for the sake of using it or making the torturer feel as if some measure of justice is being done.
However, as a means of extracting information - I'd have no problem with that.
Sure we're saying human rights are important - but its also important that we are able to PREVENT future attacks from scum like al qaeda - if torture affords us a small measure of information and protection - I'll be glad to volunteer my jumper cables and a few car batteries
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Ok sow when it bennifts us we can forget about the rules because some of the countrys use torture to. Hmmm good argument
the shaved beards killed two birds with one stone. hygeine (no, you can't get them out witha comb) and demoralizing the hell out of them which, as i said, they need.
tricky, you must be on the same pills the president is on if you think he is a good leader. we laugh at him. almost every day. you know why? because you cant respect a person who was voted in by hillbillies, pulled strings so blacks couldn't vote in florida, and choked on a damn pretzel. if gore was in office, maybe the taliban/al'qaeda wouldn't have gotten so frusterated witha guy who coulndt care less about israel or the middle east.
In a word - yes we can. If it prevents just one death, the benefit outweighs the cost.
"He hit me and thats imoral. So I'm gonna hit him twice."
I'm with Whowhere. They are POW's, its a war, and they are prisoners of it.
What are you talking about kid? Its obvious this action was being planned long before Bush came into office - lets talk about Klinton though: hmm Im in a scandal for getting a hummer - lets fire off some cruise missiles! That'll divert the attention er um I mean solve the terrorist threat.
9/11 happened for a lot of reasons but they were brewing before the Gulf war. The largest one is below -
On Israel though - I agree 100% theyre pissed at us because everytime Israel attacks Palestine the guns, bullets, planes, choppers and related ordnance all says "made in the USA" My solution - drop all aid to Israel, as an economic superpower, Israel can buy her own weapons and continue their campaign of murder and mayhem to their hearts content - the US doesnt have to sponsor it though!
And Gore!?? He'd have only offered the same "fire-some-cruise-missiles at tents" solution that Klinton did after the bombing of the Khobar towers.
ANd that last line suggesting Bush cheated and defrauded some poor black voters - for one - prove to me he cheated and then we'll talk. On the black voters - hmm maybe more interesting is the fact that blacks in the US have historically been depended on for the lowest voter turnout.
Id suggest you get your facts straight - Bush may not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier but he's doing an excellent job with this war so far. <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
And just because the Taliban leadership supported Al-Qaeda, doesn't mean the regular soldiers do. What if you apply this logic to another area of the globe. Say Ireland? The government of the Republic of Ireland doesn't actvely oppose the IRA, should we bomb them and torture their troops as well?
You cannot torture POWS, you cannot forcibly interrogate them for information that will cause harm to come to their country. And the fact that the war against the Taliban is over, the Taliban troops should be released and sent home. But because America is a hypocritical nation with morals that are only used when it suits them, they won't be following the Geneva convention, but instead bending the rules in their favour. And you wonder why everyone hates you?
Also, I hope the Pres dont have to take the pills I take.
The only reason the long planned attack was finally undertaken was because Kintons lack of resolve on any matter that had teeth. They saw a soft white underbelly.
So now we read about Tali and AlKy pows.
And thank you Brits for backing us in most of the New World Imperialists junkets..........oooops I let the secret out.