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And much supporting evidence has been posted many times over. Perhaps you should do some reading back through thiese long running debates. I really am not inclined to repost links to reports and analyses that i have already posted many times over.
But frankly, believe what you wish. I simply contend that you are folling yourself for lack of understanding of the nature of Iraqi society and of the vested interestes of not only the Bush cabinet but many of Bush's principal advisors (like Richard Perle).
Don't be lazy, go back and read...
I am a cheeky villainous scoundrel!:wave: I read the piece and I don't see where the US sold Saddam gas agents of any sort.
We appear to have sold Saddam some helicopters but not nerve agents. THe left has no evidence just accusarions. Given the kidnapping of Americans and the seizure of our embassy in Iran it might be that Americans were selling to someone who was a counter balance to Iranian nutso fundamentalism.
You also might want to see how friendly your man Chirac was with Saddam. Since Saddam assumed power in 1979 he was not yet a fully known commodity to Americans in the early 80's.
France sold him far more military equipment than America ever did! France gave Saddam the ablility to create nuclear weapons until those so called zionists blew up his reactor
George W. Bush has an obligation to the American Constitution not the UN charter. In defense of America GW is going to take Saddam out and near 75% of the American people want him to do so. We did not elect him to be the whipping boy for the FRench.
Remeber, liberalism is not a political persuasion, it is a form of mental illness!:yes: :wave:
We are now in Iraq and we are going to throw the tin plated murderer out!:D We shall expose his weapons of mass destruction and rebuild Iraq. We are doing so with the aid of our brave British allies and others.
I believe your hatred of Bush clouds your ability to objectively look at both sides of the issue. In the final analysis we are doing what the spineless French government was afraid to do. We are taking care of business.
QUESTION?
Clandestine, is your loyalty as an American to the US Constitution or the UN charter?
The clandestine collaborator has previously been identified as the SOCK PUPPET OF BAGHDAD.
Have a little pity upon the sock puppet: he is in an emotional upheaval, wondering what he is going to do now that his stipend from Baghdad is about to be terminated...
he would love to be trading with the world and building his highways and palces. he would be no threat ...EVER, to the west.
we have bombed the shit out of our old friend and ally and then denied the children of his country any painkillers or antibiotics for twelve yrs. so he might well be a little pissed off with us now ......
another person finally agrees with me! saddam is a businessman, a good one at that! he's just bitter that the rest of the arab nations hate him for flooding the markets with cheap oil! thats why he has the WMD. it's a signal to the arab nations not to fuck with iraq, but i guess George W took it personally.
For mention of the Bio/Chem sales this link is what you need...
(from Congressional transcripts)...
http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html
(and a more itemised account of our provisions to Saddam)...
http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html
Those are but two reports. I am sure you could find plenty more.
And Thanatos, nice to see our resident gun toting yahoo is still puffing up his chest and making arrogant pontifications. Helps the world to keep a clear perspective on precisely what the Ugly American sounds like! lol.
How can Sadam be classed as the main murderer with the amount of Iraqy people already killed?Hes merely defending his homeland which he has every right to do. What about all the British and American soldiers being killed?My little cousin is in the British army and the thoughts of anything happening to him make me want to slap Bush and Blair already!
Sadam co-opereated in every way possible in the end. But wanting him to leave Iraq or step down would be too much to do could he really call himself a president if he did that?
Our judgement is clouded?Your media could not be more biased!
I think it is you who needs to look at both sides- its only a game of chess BUsh the king Blair his queen and Sadam the opposite King but how many pawns are they going to kill of before it ends?
Some of these are mutually exclusive.
If Iraq is liberated and they can vote in their own leader then why should they not have WMD?
Why could this democratic govt not torture people, if the population voted for it as part of their laws?
Why would starvation end? There are lots of free countries where the population starves regularly, freedom and democracy is no guarantee of a good life, most people in the world live in bad conditions and may are at threat from starvation regardless of the type of state.
Do you think the US and Uk are going to make iraq a developed nation? No
The oil wells will belong to Iraq but the cahnces are they will be run by western companies and the profits will go to th pockets of the shareholders, this is not a conspiracy theory, this is the nature of the globalised economy which are leaders are fully supportive of.......
Fear of them gave them their day. And it gave Saddam a few more days to torture Shiite Muslims because they’re not Sunni, have women raped in front of their kids and husbands and pass on chemicals and biological weapons to radicals that want to destroy the West. Even yesterday, Iraq used the peace movement to bolster its troops and bring the moral down of ours. In fact, the peace movement gained a certain amount of pleasure from 911. Terrorist brought down two buildings filled with companies that would never have hired them. But like all morally bankrupt movements, ultimately the peace movement will fail. And the Iraqis who had loved ones murdered or tortured by Saddam…will hate you almost as much as I do.
Frankly pnj, you prove with every post that you are as clueless and outof touch with reality as are Bush and Co. It isn't the Peace Movement which wants power, that is clearly the agenda of the Elitest scum in Washington and their corporate cronies and backers.
As for those in the Peace Movement, well lil man, quite a substantial number around the globe are people of high professional standing as well as past military service (from Soldiers right up to officers), so youre little delusional rant falls flat on its face.
I dont know what you are aiming to achieve with such inflammatory, self delusional claims, but youll likely succeed at getting booted from these boards if youre don't start using your head for something more than a hatrack.
And here we are right back where the nation was 40 years ago, boasting of its self-appointed role in deciding the fate of the world and making a much bigger long term mess of it that will be the task of generations to correct.
Obviously the domestic psyche of the nation has not matured or registered the fact that Washington will lie as much as it possibly can with the media's assistance in order to conduct grandiose exhibitions of destruction for future arms sales (even to other heinous regimes in fact).
Its a shame that you are so easily goaded into unthinking flag waving arrogance whist Bush and co systematically alienate us from the international community. Oh be sure the fallout will extend for some considerable time even after the dust has settled from this conquest.
Ye every time I read PNJ's posts they just say a load of crap!
I thought it was just me but his understandings and deductions come from nowhere- its a war against one man! But will they even end when he is dead?America still reasonless as ever!
No, but they routinely support dictators and regimes that do. Musharraf in Pakistan, the Royals in Saudi Arabia, Sharon in Israel... The list goes on.
Also, it sets a dangerous precedent for countries to act as they see fit, when they see fit without recourse to the UN.
Also, Israel will undoubtedly use the war to execute many more Palestinian People.
Also, weapons inspections were working. Hans Blix was making progress.
And Bush and Blair will install a puppet regime, end of story. No development will be required to ensure our corporations gain control over oil production, that is a fait accomplis which wont even be open for discussion. The spoils of war, as they say. :rolleyes:
Clandestine, my friends burst out laughing when they read your remark about how I'd probably be wearing headsets and my dad's friend's Oscar party. They said that's so me...if I were allowed to get away with it.
The heavy bombardment going on today, might be expensive to fix. Hopefully, the bombs are as accurate as they claim.
your administration disgust me.
Any laboratory throughout ther US and the world can get samples of plague, botulinum, and anthrax. I am sure you are aware that those biologics occur naturally and there is no indication that any "weapons grade" biologics were given Iraq. Further, thee is no indication any equipment or information was provided the Iraqis.
You are also aware that the Congressional Record of the United States is revised and edited so its use as a source is suspect. Much of what I read was blatantly partisan and the evidence was questionable.
The reactor was supplied by the French.
I will look up the other uses of thioglycol and see if their is a smoking gun. I am sure you are aware that the Iraqis could obtain the technology to cr4eate their own.
Back in a jiff!
Hitler was only defending his homeland too!;)
Respectfully submitted for your edification.
2-Mecaptoethanol( also known as Thioglycol).
It is a clear colorless liquid with a disagreeable odor. (It smells like flatulence).
It is produced by synthesis of hydrogen sulphide(bad smell) gas and ethylene oxide. It is used in the synthesis of PVC heat stabilizers and as an intermediate to produce crop protection products, dispersants, fibers, textiles, dyes, and pharmaceutical products.
While it may be used in mustard gas you also realize that chlorine is used in pools but is also used to make gas! Sarin can be made using readily availble materials.(None of which will be listed here for obvious reasons)! Ricin is made from the Castor bean.(The source of Castor oil). :yuck: Abrin is made from the Rosemary Pea. Saddam has all these and he certainly didn't need the "evil" Americans to develop them.
As for me being brainwashed, well, I think not!;)
As much as we are seen as the cause of most of the world's evils it simply not true. We are guilty of some indiscretions but not arming the Iraqis with Chems or Biologics!
We also are not going about sinking the GreenPeace boat!
My! Oh, MY! Who is that group helping the Iraqis develop enriched nuclear products for bomb production. Seems to have a rather distinct Gallic(garlic) flavor!
Remember to open your eyes wide to the transgressions of all and take both sides to truly understand an issue. Everyone goes after PNJ but some points he makes have merit whilst others do not. See both sides and do the mental gymnastics as the truth lies in the middle somewhere!:) :yes:
Those who refuse to hold Washington accountable for its shady dealings can excuse these events, as you have done, with any number of contrivances and turns, but the fact remains that we armed Saddam with any and all means necessary to prosecute the war with Iran and turned a blind eye over his use of our supplies until decades later when it it could be added to the roster of issues used to dupe the public into thinking this is anything but outright hegemonic conquest for corporate control of the region.
That people like you are so willfully blind simply further emblodens Washington that it can do as it pleases so long as it can generate sufficient spin later to wash their hands of their own complicity.
http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52241-2002Dec29.html
Were we the only ones, no we werent, but that does not remove our culpability from the mix, especially as the war in which these agents were used to gas civilians was waged at the prompting of and in the further interests of Washington.
Time to come clean and acknowledge that we are from morally superior to those regimes who have done (and indeed yet do) our dirty work throughout the world.
The Sociology Professor from Michigan made a good many accusations but I need concrete proof and not the suppositions reported and the long stretch in logic. In a court of law his case would be shot down.
The Washington Post article was a tad better but again there is only a supposition that we knowingly sold them Triglycol or other agents for illicit purposes.
As I said in my last post the Iraqis might turn a number of seemingly innocuous items into weapons. Mustard gas, phosgene, and even nerve agents are readily producible using common material and scientific know how. It really is a simple art and you can buy Russian scientists by the dozen. The Iraqis also have some wonderfully trained scientists!
Biologic samples that are not weapons grade may be shipped to any accredited lab! It happens all the time in the states with relative ease. The material can be obtained from any modern industrial country or it could be developed by the Iraqis themselves. Please note that there is no conclusive proof of any sort showing the use of weapons grade biologics by the Iraqis. The mechanisms to spread such agents would require weapons grade material and the ability to spread the same. All those things are readily available from former Soviet Republics so why look to the Yanks and draw attention to ones self!
Multi-national corporations run the world. The American "only" scenario is hopelesly arcane! Try and work your way through the maze of holding companies!
I also have no intentions of making excuses for anyones behavior but my own!;) Oh, I am also not blind to what goes on in the world.:)
Would that it were that realpolitik were as simple as your sources make it. The media, whether left or right is controlled by the corporates. Think how left and right are set against each other. Look past simplistic charges and discern that the truth is between the two polls. I can assure you I am no dupe of either the left or right. I equally distrust both. Trust no one!
By the by there are no morals in realpolitik! There is only power. Ask Chirac!;)
clandestine, you are too smart to accept the pat answers of just one side of the spectrum. Analyze the game a bit closer and then step back a bit. Question everyones veracity and motives! It requires you to move beyond taking sides.
The truth is out there.
The new regime will not be subject to any UN treaties, they will sign them if they choose but they don't have to....
The US tortures and executes prisoners and they will be the main protagonists in setting up the new regime. You also forget that there are thousands and millions of Iraqis who support Saddam and will quite likely want a state in his model......
Starvation is caused by lack of money to buy food. The new Iraq will be as unequal as it is now if not more so. The Washington consensus of small state and private utilites will ensure it.....
They have spent lots of money on the war so they will spend even more on rebuilding? If it is in their best interests to have an economicaly developed Iraq then why not other nations? I do not see them working too hard to help out the rest of the developing world.....
I do support our troops, and I dont want them to die, and because of this I dont want them in the Gulf at all, I'm sure the friends I have who are there would be much safer in portsmouth.
I really think the idea that the US and UK can install morality (and their version of it at that) around the world is a very scary one.
Wheres next? Theres a whole list of countries that arent very nice to their own people, there are only a few countries in the world that are democratic, are we going to keep going to war till we have "liberated" everyone?
Its the double standards that get to me more than anything, there are loads of countries that torture their own people but get the wests support. The US for example was going to give upwards of $20bn to Turkey for their support, and they've been really nice to the kurds have they?
Or perhaps the US commenting that they are going to give up on Columbia and just let them get on with their civil war.
I aggree that Sadam is an 'evil' man (I dont like morality those black and white terms) but war is not the answer, I really feel he is just a good target for the US so they can feel that they are getting to their attackers.
Most peoples all over the world will always prefer bad rulling by one of their own than good rulling by an outsider.
But my problem/concern with the march is that it distracts police from watching out for Al Qaeda. And I believe Al Qaeda knows this. Also it puts extra stress on police people.
The democracy that we are forcing on Iraq starts at home, people have the right to have their views known.
They were having a Nazi style (and i don't use that analogy lightly) destruction of Dixie Chicks CD's recently.
I actually thought until recently that Americans had a good knowledge of their constitution and the philosophical underepinnings but now it would seem they only think of their constitution in terms of suing people.
By the way, in NYC they've been playing the Dixie Chicks on frequent rotation...which means they put it on the radio a lot. The US is big. That stuff happened in the South and Texas.