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Opinions on Che Guevara (12/28/2010)

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MoK wrote: »
    Why does the system of Govt make any difference?

    Because the system of government is why certain mass murderers in recent history get a "free pass" so to speak that others don't.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    So what do do you believe is the combined death toll worldwide under Communist regimes? Roughly.

    Quite a lot. Although in your subsequent post, you mention mass murderers. Yet the figures mentioned when discussing Mao and Stalin, for example, almost always include famine victims, who made up the vast majority of their death tolls. Now that is excellent evidence for the failures of communist systems of economics on such a massive scale, but isn't a good argument for the murderous intent of the dictators themselves. Not that I'm suggesting that they weren't murderous, of course, but this is frequently the case with any dictator when their power is challenged. It's also extremely difficult to compare when you've got dictators in charge of vastly different populations. There are only a handful of countries in the world where anyone could even attempt to replicate the numbers that died in Mao's China, for example. Is that evidence of greater evil, or just that he happened to be in charge of more people. That's why I would generally put Pol Pot at the top of my list, because his genocide killed such a huge percentage of the population of Cambodia.

    But attributing all of this to the supposed ideology of the government is very simplistic. During the Vietnam war, for example, Vietnam went to war with communist China and took out Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge, who were working hard to turn Cambodia into a communist dictatorship. And yet despite this, you could attribute all deaths on all sides to communist regimes. What you often have, is actually simple old-fashioned nationalism. Mugabe's land grab is more about racism and nationalism (in response to years of colonial rule) than it is about some sort of socialist ideology.

    Now a question for you. What do you think would be the current state of civil rights in the world without the vast contributions of communist groups?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    Because the system of government is why certain mass murderers in recent history get a "free pass" so to speak that others don't.

    What, you mean like a democratically elected President or Prime Minister?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Now a question for you. What do you think would be the current state of civil rights in the world without the vast contributions of communist groups?

    Massively better would be the answer...

    I think you may be getting communism muddled with more moderate left leaning social democrats
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Massively better would be the answer...

    I think you may be getting communism muddled with more moderate left leaning social democrats

    Nah, I'm specifically thinking of organised communist parties in Western countries. Certain people may have written their contribution out of history because the Cold War made in unfashionable to have any sort of balanced opinion of socialism or communism, but their contribution remains. Along with the Quakers, they were the driving force behind the American civil rights movement, for example. Martin Luther King was just a figurehead and an excellent tactical decision in promoting their cause to a highly religious population.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nah, I'm specifically thinking of organised communist parties in Western countries. Certain people may have written their contribution out of history because the Cold War made in unfashionable to have any sort of balanced opinion of socialism or communism, but their contribution remains. Along with the Quakers, they were the driving force behind the American civil rights movement, for example. Martin Luther King was just a figurehead and an excellent tactical decision in promoting their cause to a highly religious population.

    Do you have a source for this claim, as I always have been of the view that the small number of communists were entryists and that Civil Rights was dominated by the mainstream politicians (who were hostile to communism). It was liberals rather than communists who created civil rights for blacks (plus small 'c' conservatives who wanted black votes or feared social unrest)

    I'd also be interested in how the communists made any real difference in the rest of the West - they've always been a minor political force and the most they've managed is to get one or two cabinet Ministers in some left leaning (but not communist Governments), and even then it's jumping the gun a bit to claim that these Governments made vast contributions to Civil Rights (in Western Europe the biggest contribution was the defeat of Nazi Germany and US reconstruction, in Eastern Europe the fall of the USSR). And I cannot think of any contribution to Civil Rights in the UK (or any of the other Anglo-saxon/Celtic bloc) by communists.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote: »
    Because the system of government is why certain mass murderers in recent history get a "free pass" so to speak that others don't.

    Such as...?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'd be interested in finding this out too. The only murderous dictator of recent times that I can think of who got a free ride was Pinochet, who was allowed to wriggle out of war crimes allegations through "ill health" that was spurious at best. Most of the Balkan genocide perpetrators are languishing in The Hague, as are a good few Cambodians. The Iraqis dictators all got hanged. We all know what happened to the Caeucescus.

    You could perhaps make an argument to say that Erich Honecker did get a free ride, on similar grounds to those of Pinochet, except that he DID actually die of cancer within a year or so of being exiled to Chile. Other than that, I'm stumped. Most of the other DDR leaders spent some time in prison for what they did.
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