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Are you a feminist?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
Or more specifically, do you openly admit to being one?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11775923

I don't go out of my way to be politically correct, neither do I try my best to offend, I consider myself to be a normal bloke of today.

I have to admit if a woman identifies herself as being a feminist, I'm immediately on edge. I don't think any less of her, I don't pity her or anything, but automatically I feel that if I inadvertantly say the wrong thing, she's going to get in my face over it. That perception is not exclusive to feminism - anyone telling me they're an issue activist would get me on edge.

So, if you're a feminist (or hold feminist views), do you keep it to yourself?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I have to admit if a woman identifies herself as being a feminist, I don't pity her or anything

    :d :d :d

    (Apologies for the selective quoting but I feel it was warranted)
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    I believe I'm a feminist, given what the word means, but I don't agree with the word "feminist". Meaning that I'm not "pro women", I'm "pro equality". While most of the unfairness when it comes to sex equality is against women, not all of it is and so I don't feel that the name is justified.
    Forgetting the rant about the word's etymology however, yes, I believe I qualify as a "feminist" and would declare so whenever asked and whenever I felt it was important.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :d :d :d

    (Apologies for the selective quoting but I feel it was warranted)

    OK let me clarify that comment - from that article I linked to it said some men seem to look down on feminists - I was trying to make it clear I don't share that view.

    I feel a lot of flak coming my way for the wording I used...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel a lot of flak coming my way for the wording I used...

    Rest assured it will not be from these quarters.

    I welcome the mirth and merriment provided.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't have an issue with the word 'feminist', as 'masculism' exists for men. :) However, not sure where that leaves non-bnary people (but that'sa whole different argument I guess).

    I'd say I'm a feminist, but from which school... I'm undecided.
    I have to admit if a woman identifies herself as being a feminist, I'm immediately on edge. I don't think any less of her, I don't pity her or anything, but automatically I feel that if I inadvertantly say the wrong thing, she's going to get in my face over it. That perception is not exclusive to feminism - anyone telling me they're an issue activist would get me on edge.
    To be honest though, I've met a lot of feminists, activists, vegans, socialists, anarchists and so on... I've found them no less likely to get in your face than people who don't take on those labels. I think an ass hole is an ass hole tbh...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    To be honest though, I've met a lot of feminists, activists, vegans, socialists, anarchists and so on... I've found them no less likely to get in your face than people who don't take on those labels. I think an ass hole is an ass hole tbh...

    It's not often I agree with you but I do here. Preachy self-righteous twats who refuse to accept that any view that differs from their own is valid are not confined to any one particular label.

    Was it not Kierkegaard who said "once you label me, you negate me".
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    It's not often I agree with you but I do here. Preachy self-righteous twats who refuse to accept that any view that differs from their own is valid are not confined to any one particular label.
    It's not always about refusing to accept different views though. Some people can be so caught up (can't think of a better word right now) in such a movement that they see attacks against it where there aren't any.
    Like a woman who gets turned down from some heavy job and attributs it to the managers being sexist instead of simply her not being fit for it, or that story about the one who thought not being allowed to wear a crucifix on a plane was a move against her religion.
    (Please, let this NOT change the thread's topic; these are only examples)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    no :no:
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Namaste wrote: »
    I don't have an issue with the word 'feminist', as 'masculism' exists for men. :)
    I don't believe they should be two different things, however.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Im for equality between men and women but i dont call myself a feminist cos i probably will get looked down upon as a bra burning lesbian.

    Trouble is, its the extreme feminists who give them a bad name. The ones who think women should be given more rights than men when actually, feminists just want to be equal
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't believe they should be two different things, however.

    They naturally are - feminism is about seeking fairer and increased rights for women, masculism is about it for men. Feminism certainly doesn't champion some of the issues that affect men - the fact men are more likely to be imprisoned, the fact boys don't do as well at school, the fact fathers have almost no power over what happens with their kids after a separation / divorce. Feminism has historically had a lot of weight behind it because a lot of the issues affecting women were more serious (sexual violence, discrimination, even the right to vote).

    Egalitarianism is about seeking fairer rights and so on for everybody.

    But feminism will always have a 'what is the fair deal for women' perspective, no real way round that.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which sadly is what feminism has become, or at least is perceived to have become - people hijacking a very noble cause for their own agenda. Equality when it suits them.

    Several of them write for the Guardian.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm a feminist. I love dancing around a cmapfire in dungarees burning my bra and being completely seperatist to the point where if I had a boy child I would give it away. Do not pity me, be very afraid.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont feel the need to use the label 'feminist' or make a big issue about it. maybe i'm being too idealistic and naive but i assumed the majority of individuals are for equal rights, it being pretty much the norm. maybe i am wrong?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont feel the need to use the label 'feminist' or make a big issue about it. maybe i'm being too idealistic and naive but i assumed the majority of individuals are for equal rights, it being pretty much the norm. maybe i am wrong?

    People are for equal rights in principle.

    In practice, it gets difficult. Women are more likely to have to look after their kids, and so need flexi-time in the workplace. If you are a professional services firm, that can be difficult to deal with.

    If you are a small company and need to pay a salary out to someone on maternity leave, how do you deal with that?

    If you're a woman who had a one-night stand and as a consequence a kid, but you can't afford to raise them on your own, how do you deal with that?

    The principles are great, but because we are not equal, and because men and women often have different needs, it is changing a lot of the existing systems in society that catered generally for mens needs that causes problems. Especially if you are a man who loves working overtime, 9-8 every day, getting a massive pay packet at the end of the year. If your company suddenly turns around and says that's giving an unfair advantage to those -able- to work overtime, you're suddenly hard up, not because of anything you did wrong, but because not everyone is able to do that, and so unfair.

    This conflict between mens interests and womens interests is at the crux of it.

    Of course, there's the common sense things too that aren't really a conflict in my eyes but just some old fashioned idiots trying to keep things the same.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I feel slightly uncomfortable around women who aren't (what I consider to be) feminists, however if someone spontaneously self-identifies as a feminist I get defensive.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    of course im a feminist, as are most people who arent cunts. (whether they realise it or not)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    People are for equal rights in principle.

    In practice, it gets difficult. Women are more likely to have to look after their kids, and so need flexi-time in the workplace. If you are a professional services firm, that can be difficult to deal with.

    If you are a small company and need to pay a salary out to someone on maternity leave, how do you deal with that?

    If you're a woman who had a one-night stand and as a consequence a kid, but you can't afford to raise them on your own, how do you deal with that?

    The principles are great, but because we are not equal, and because men and women often have different needs, it is changing a lot of the existing systems in society that catered generally for mens needs that causes problems. Especially if you are a man who loves working overtime, 9-8 every day, getting a massive pay packet at the end of the year. If your company suddenly turns around and says that's giving an unfair advantage to those -able- to work overtime, you're suddenly hard up, not because of anything you did wrong, but because not everyone is able to do that, and so unfair.

    This conflict between mens interests and womens interests is at the crux of it.

    Of course, there's the common sense things too that aren't really a conflict in my eyes but just some old fashioned idiots trying to keep things the same.

    cheers shyboy :) good post!
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Especially if you are a man who loves working overtime, 9-8 every day, getting a massive pay packet at the end of the year. If your company suddenly turns around and says that's giving an unfair advantage to those -able- to work overtime, you're suddenly hard up, not because of anything you did wrong, but because not everyone is able to do that, and so unfair.
    :confused: I don't think equality means that people who are able to do more than others shouldn't be allowed to do so... Or am I misunderstanding your point?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes, I am, although I can't say it comes up often enough to actually call myself one.

    Nor do I consider opposing places like Hooters and pornography (conveniently ignoring female-made pornography aimed at women, usually) as having anything whatsoever to contribute to equality (which isn't to say there aren't genuine issues about the treatment of women in such professions, but that's an issue of employment rights). It's the usual bullshit of making sex a special case, which is absolutely a relic of our prudish past, however much they want to deny it. Nobody goes to watch a band, and worries about the audience only seeing the guitar player as a "music object." Suddenly change "music" to "sex" and it becomes a big issue. The insinuation, of course, is that seeing one woman as a sex object in the context of a piece of media means you will transfer those feelings to the entire gender. Well sorry, but that's ludicrous.

    Having said all that, I do think that Miss World is bollocks, and welcome any attempt to take the piss out of it. I particularly hate the facade that they care about the contestant's personalities.
  • Indrid ColdIndrid Cold Warming up? Posts: 16,688
    Nobody goes to watch a band, and worries about the audience only seeing the guitar player as a "music object." Suddenly change "music" to "sex" and it becomes a big issue. The insinuation, of course, is that seeing one woman as a sex object in the context of a piece of media means you will transfer those feelings to the entire gender. Well sorry, but that's ludicrous.
    I like that point!
    I have to say however, that "sex object" is a special case because many times through history women have been seen as nothing else than that (and that's also the case many times today) so it's a sore spot...
    However, I don't think that seeing someone as a "sex object" and seeing/respecting them as a person are mutual exclusives.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :confused: I don't think equality means that people who are able to do more than others shouldn't be allowed to do so... Or am I misunderstanding your point?

    People who work a lot of overtime get promoted faster and on average get paid more as well, so those who can't do overtime because of other commitments are discriminated against when getting promoted.

    Ergo those groups don't achieve as well in their careers, even if they are intelligent and able at their jobs. Positive discrimination can be used to make sure it is 'equal' - so you have a quota of maybe a minimum of 40% (you would want some managerial slack in there) of promotions must be women each year. This means women have a better chance of getting promoted = greater equality.

    The point is when it comes down to practical factors, how do you resolve issues like that? Not letting women work in workplaces where typically you had to have a lot of physical strength? Or do you change the required levels of athleticism to reflect that not everyone can easily lift 25kg on their own, for example. When I worked at the co op, they had a policy that if a violent shopper came in (they had an emergency code), all the men had to quickly run to that area, because men are macho and can fight, presumably. Maybe the conflict here would be: feminist perspective - women shouldn't be expected to enter into violent confrontation, especially with a man; masculist perspective - why should men have to perform a greater range of duties than a woman in the same job at the same pay.

    Ultimately, if you take the non-interventionist stance and say 'yes, men and women should be allowed to apply for the same job - but the standards are the same' then typically they will favor men indirectly as men have done a lot of those jobs before. The people in who get promoted will be those who work the long hours, who go to the pub on a friday night with the gang, that kind of thing.

    A single mum just can't do that. You can either say - tough luck, or you can say (as a feminist) - that's unfair that women are being discriminated against in this way because they can't keep up with the boys club. And then if you do implement measures to ensure women are quotad for promotion and recruitment, then men could argue they are being discriminated against because regardless of ability they have a willy.

    Tricky and complex situations, which is probably why people still debate over it today!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which sadly is what feminism has become, or at least is perceived to have become - people hijacking a very noble cause for their own agenda. Equality when it suits them.

    Several of them write for the Guardian.
    Perceived to have become. :)

    There are several different feminist groups and campaigns, as feminism is a collection of movements, not a sole movement.

    Not sure which feminists you mean from the Guardian... Do you have any examples of it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So either way, some form of discrimination has to take place.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    People are for equal rights in principle.

    In practice, it gets difficult. Women are more likely to have to look after their kids, and so need flexi-time in the workplace. If you are a professional services firm, that can be difficult to deal with.

    If you are a small company and need to pay a salary out to someone on maternity leave, how do you deal with that?

    If you're a woman who had a one-night stand and as a consequence a kid, but you can't afford to raise them on your own, how do you deal with that?

    The principles are great, but because we are not equal, and because men and women often have different needs, it is changing a lot of the existing systems in society that catered generally for mens needs that causes problems. Especially if you are a man who loves working overtime, 9-8 every day, getting a massive pay packet at the end of the year. If your company suddenly turns around and says that's giving an unfair advantage to those -able- to work overtime, you're suddenly hard up, not because of anything you did wrong, but because not everyone is able to do that, and so unfair.

    This conflict between mens interests and womens interests is at the crux of it.

    Of course, there's the common sense things too that aren't really a conflict in my eyes but just some old fashioned idiots trying to keep things the same.
    I don't think some of the issues above are conflicts... I think a lot of it comes down to gender roles and society's expectations. A man should have every right to be a stay at home Dad and have paternity leave, as a woman should have for pursuing a career.... I don't view any conflict there, beyond gender roles and so called 'business need'.

    I think a part of the issue is that a lot of companies aren't family friendly. It's sad that some people have to miss out on their kids growing up, especially if they can't afford not to work less hours due to low wages.

    Gender discrimination can happen, but I think that it's hard to really tell the depth of a problem in work until at least, the work place allows for its workers to have a family life.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    women often arent even given jobs in the first place or looked over for promotion JUST IN CASE they happen to want a baby at some point
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    women often arent even given jobs in the first place or looked over for promotion JUST IN CASE they happen to want a baby at some point
    I have heard that from a few people in the law industry... Many firms will not employ women, or will ask women if they are having kids. Some apparently won't consider people with African names.

    Obviously, it's just what some people in the industry have said...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Agree with the last two posts, have heard my boss say that she would not take on another female of child bearing age for a senior post at work after 2 people that fit that description have taken the job and left after to have kids and not come back.

    I understand why she has said that but it wasn't overly pleasing to my ears to hear it.

    I would say I am a feminist. People automatically assume a hell of a lot from others using that title.

    I assume people that fix very negative conotations to the word and people who use it are being a bit stupid, especially when they say that they already know not everyone fits their prejudiced idea of what the word means.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Namaste wrote: »
    I have heard that from a few people in the law industry... Many firms will not employ women, or will ask women if they are having kids. Some apparently won't consider people with African names.

    Obviously, it's just what some people in the industry have said...

    Would you want to work for a law firm like that? If they've got such a poor understanding of the law that they don't even understand that asking a question like that is likely to get them up in a tribunal quicker than I can blink (and almost certain to loose). They will go bust so quick you're better not working for them
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    The people in who get promoted will be those who work the long hours, who go to the pub on a friday night with the gang, that kind of thing.

    A single mum just can't do that. You can either say - tough luck, or you can say (as a feminist) - that's unfair that women are being discriminated against in this way because they can't keep up with the boys club. And then if you do implement measures to ensure women are quotad for promotion and recruitment, then men could argue they are being discriminated against because regardless of ability they have a willy.

    I might be misunderstanding but with that bit? Working long hours and going to the pub doesn't equal ability to do the job surely?!

    ***read it back no and I think youre talking about two seperate things - either way who gets the job should be down to ability to do that job on which we are in agreement, however there should be measures in place to make sure that workplaces provide opportunities for those that have restrictions that prevent them from being able to take those jobs***
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