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words fail me
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
BillieTheBot
Posts: 8,721 Bot
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I'm quite glad I live in a part of the world where religion and reason usually manage to go hand in hand slightly better than that.
How merciful of them :rolleyes:
But I don't see why people consider excommunication to be a punishment. It's like being kicked out of the KKK for having a black friend.
You either believe something is a sin and morally wrong, or you don't, there really is no middle ground. If the religion you profess to follow and the holy text you claim to believe is the word of god tells you X is wrong, then you either choose to believe X is wrong no matter what and face the consequences, or you make a personal decision to interpret it differently and give more weight to other moral values, and therefore admit that you aren't really a Catholic or following what the bible tells you to do at all, but rather picking and choosing the bits that your intuition tells you to.
If you call yourself Catholic but think abortion is ok in circumstances of rape etc. then you're effectively saying the murder of an innocent baby is justified if the mother has been raped, since Catholicism stipulates that zygotes constitute innocent human life. You're also saying that you don't accept the moral authority of the pope, which is what Catholicism is centered around.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hold these views myself, but it just seems to me like there is this attitude that we should all respect religion and be open minded to it, except when something like this happens and we are all suddenly disgusted - why should we be really, since all these people are doing is acting on their faith and their belief about the nature of morality? Or are people saying that religion should only be respected when it is nice and fits in with our liberal, tolerant society, where we have nice wishy washy, pick and mix interpretations of religious texts and everything is "metaphorical" and centred around love?
militant athiesm is like saying just because i don't believe in fairies, that i'm a militant afairy believer : unless ou're saying some athiests are militant in that they'll use violence against god believers?
back to case at hand: nasty man imo very nasty, he should be offering words of support to her after gonig through what that family has
in general if you're against abortion because you think it's straight off murder, then rape induced pregnancy still isn't valid because in all fairness if you think there's a conscious baby in the woman, that 'baby' has done nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be murdered - obviously this doesn't apply to allll pro-lifers but the ones who think it's just plain murder.
Are you saying that as long as certain religious groups stick to their guns then that's okay? That it doesn't matter what they get up to? As long as they don't ever contradict themselves?
Cause last time I checked in with my mate Jesus, his message was about love, actually, not militant regimes. It was about acceptance, abortions and all.
It wouldn't be the first time. "This just in, the Jews aren't collectively responsible for killing Jesus." :rolleyes:
Just like Mother Teresa.
That is your personal interpretation of the bible; there are lots of bits of the bible (the OT for example) that are most certainly NOT about love and acceptance, that just get brushed aside. Who are we to decide which bits of "the word of god" should be taken literally, and which bits should be ignored or identified as a product of their time? If you're just going to follow your moral intuitions, or argue from the nature of humanity as to why certain acts are wrong, then all you're doing is deciding what is right and wrong for yourself (and rightly so in my opinion). Why bring religion into it at all if all you're going to do is go with the bits that appeal to you the most based on your own personal thoughts and feelings about morality?
No I am not saying that, because I don't think religion is a sound basis for any belief or action. What I am saying is is that things like these are the logical conclusion of faith. If we respect, and indeed encourage, people to have faith in certain beliefs, texts and figures, without reason or evidence, often just based on what they have been told, then things like this are bound to happen. If you support religion and the right for people to interpret their religious texts how they want, then what grounds do you have for objecting when something such as this happens? Or are you saying people can only interpret their religious texts how they want, and only have the freedom to act on their faith, when it fits in with your own personal moral intuitions and beliefs?
Exactly. So if you're Catholic, accept the Catholic interpretation of the bible, believe the pope is God's respresentative on earth, then you believe that abortion is the equivalent of murdering a newborn child. The fact that the mother has been raped, or that her life is in danger, doesn't make it ok.
Exactly. If you WANT people to have faith and to be able to act on their religious beliefs, then these are the consequences. If you only want people to have faith and act on their beliefs if it is all happy clappy and about love, while they conveniently brush the not so popular views about homosexuality and abortion etc. under the carpet, then what you're saying is that you only think people should be allowed freedom of religion as long as it fits in with your own neat views about morality.
Nonsense. The Pope and his lieutenants are human, and thus fallible. If people had never challenged the voice and policy of the Vatican, Catholics would still believe the Earth is flat and homosexuals should be killed.
Presumably collaboration with the Nazis and cover ups of child abuse by priests were also okay, since they were carried out by the Vatican....
I know many Catholics who completely ignore the odious and ludicrous Vatican policy on condoms. Does it make them lesser Catholics? The fuck it does.
Equally, I suspect those very Catholics will have been disgusted and appalled by this excommunications. If anything, it's the heartless bastard responsible for them that has no right to call himself Christian, or Catholic.
Making statements about, for example, Catholics or Christians create misunderstanding if what you mean by those terms is not expressed.
The Catholic Church is a corporate body with a corporate charter.(For all intents and purposes a man with a small hat is the chairman). I am in agreement with I'm With Stupid in that dissent from the rules of the corporation will result in penalties.
If people do not want to be bound by those rules why go around calling yourself a Catholic. That seems odd behaviour to me.
Then again the Catholic Church talk a lot about God and Jesus when in reality their rules differ greatly from those reportedly laid down by God, and then endorsed by Jesus.
Perhaps there is huge financial benefit in the (by name only) association ?
I completely agree with this. I don't think anyone could actually believe that the vatican has catholic values. The list of modern sins they came up with months ago seemed to be a list of their daily activities. Of course the catholic church are punishing a little girl who's been let down by people who should have been looking after her. That's what they do. They only way they can force their irrational thoughts, which they have no intention of following, on people is through fear. I'm not anti-catholic, because I know a lot of catholics who are intellegent, caring people. Even if they don'[t always go along with whatever the vatican says I'd say they're more catholic, because they put others before themselves and actually stick with what they say they believe, rather than saying things like sex is ok as long as its with an unwilling child.
So it seems there might be human beings in the Vatican after all...
So... does this now mean the Vatican is not Catholic enough, or even not Catholic at all, for contravening Catholic rules? Or does it simply confirm that Catholicism is ruled by men not God, and as such there is nothing wrong with challenging some of its rules, and nothing wrong with expecting priests behave with rationality instead of acting like heartless cunts?
What have the rules got to do with anything? They went back on the punishment, not the rules. They're saying that excommunication wasn't technically the correct punishment under the circumstances, not that a sin had not been committed.
True that heh. A friend said recently: If god is all powerful, then he has the power to create an object in space that is completely immovable. If god is all powerful, then he has the power to create an object in space that is perpetually moving and can't be stopped. What happens when these two objects collide?
placebo - I think the militant atheism term comes from possibly me where I described antitheists who are people who are just as fervent about atheism and dogmatic about it as those religious zealots are about their particular religions. I.e. everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is wrong and needs to burn / have their rights taken away from them etc.
I think the pope is a fruitcake, incididentally.
Yes. Absolutely. The Catholic Church needs to get out of the dark ages and move with the times.
And whilst I'm on it, they should positively encourage contraception too.
And you don't see ANY contradiction there? One of the fundamentals of religion is that it guides you with regards to ULTIMATE MORAL TRUTHS. Either abortion is murder of an innocent human life, or it isn't. You can't just "decide" that something is no longer morally wrong for the sake of "moving with the times"; if you're just going to change your mind like that, why bother with the idea that there are moral laws at all?
Also, how can anyone support religion and encourage people to base their beliefs on a religious text, then go mental when something like this happens and start objecting to it?
Personally I agree with you, I think the crap the Catholic church comes up with is absolutely disgusting, however, I also hold that any belief based on religion or a religious source is unjustified. But you can't say "yaaay religion" until something that you don't like happens, because this is just religion being followed through to its logical conclusion - encourage people to base their beliefs on a religious text and tell them they can interpret that text however they want and live by that interpretation, with complete disregard for evidence/utilitarian principles/observation of the world around them, then this is what happens.
Because they're rational and decent human beings who wish to promote the overall message of love and tolerance in the New Testament instead of some of the violent and bigoted mantra that can be found in the OT?
Or are you suggesting religious people should either start killing those who work on the Sabbath, sell some their offspring to slavery or persecute those who eat shellfish, or quit pretending to follow their religion? It's all in the Bible, at the end of the day...
Could you help me find that message ?
It's called the stuff what Jesus said.
Matthew 10 verse 34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword
The kingdom of God is within you.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life.
Hearken to the word; understand knowledge; love life, and no one will persecute you, nor will anyone oppress you, other than you yourselves.
Knowledge and ritual without compassion is empty.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.
There is only one love that loves unconditionally – the love of the Divine.
Love your neighbor, but who is your neighbor. Your neighbor is the one who is sent to you from the Divine. Your neighbor can be one who is a total stranger to you from afar. Your neighbor can be someone living close to you. But what is true is that your neighbor is one of the Light who needs your support as much as you need his.
I think you're being absolutist, the bible says thou shall not kill but then instructs people to defend others or something. Of course religious texts contradict themselves and are open to interpretation, that's why there are so many thousands of religious scholars around the world who spend their whole life trying to understand these texts. You're saying either you believe in the bible and must do every ridiculous thing it says, or that you must deny it and that there is no middle ground. But I find - not as a subscriber to any religion myself - that all the religious texts actually do carry important messages and lessons for us - and they can help us reflect on what it is to be human. It just takes common sense to filter out the good ones and the rubbish ones, like any other book or ideology in the world.