If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Options
Democratic deficit in Britain
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
And I'm not talking about the E. U either, even though this is undemocratic.
I'm talking about this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5137930.stm
About how Scottish and Welsh MP's are allowed to vote on purely English issues that do not even affect their own constituents.
Labour were quick enough to give Scotland and Wales devolution but they missed out England. Claims were made how the Conservatives made life so horrible for the poor old Scottish people, they were quick to forget they get more funding than us!!! We pay more taxes than they do.
They also quickly forget how it's a British parliament and not an English parliament. Yes there are a majority of English MP's but what do you expect when England is the largest country?
If the majoirty of MP's happen to be Conservatives then you have to accept that, even though a particular region has voted differently.
As for the poll tax claim, Thatcher basically needed an area where she could implement this policy to see how it worked out. I probably would of picked Scotland too. It is a middle size region in terms of population, should get a good analysis there. Anyway, the poll tax has gone and they only had it for 1 year so this is hardly a big claim. Further, England eventually was hit by the poll tax too so we were all affected by it. So, Scotland, stop feeling sorry for your selves.
So in 1998, Devolution was granted. Both Wales and Scotland could of had devolution in 1979 but both countries had inadequate support for such move.
So, both countries were given some independent powers. We all know about the soverignty issue but put this aside as Westminister wouldn't bother interfearing in Scottish affairs.
This brought a two tier government for both countries, mostly for Scotland than Wales.
Scotland was given executive powers where they could make legislation in certain areas granted by Westminster and also had a tax varying power. This had meant that democestic issues would be very different from mainstream Britain. Wales wasn't granted as much powers but is slightly different to England on issues such as education and health.
English issues were left to Westminster as usual. This meant any MP regardless of where they came from could vote on English issues. This also meant that any proposal in the manifesto to do with domestic issues wouldn't even apply to devolved institutions. This meant that general elections for Scotland and Wales were not as important, even though turnout is higher than for their devolved elections.
Legislation such as tuition fees, education bill, health bill to name a few would be in the hands of the westminister parliament and decisions could be made by all MP's whether they are English, Scottish or Welsh or even N.Irish.
Gordan Brown is set to become the next MP. He represents a Scottish constituency. How on earth can he legislate for us and tell us that this is what we need when he isn't doing the same for his own constituencies. The English didn't vote the guy in for gods sake. This is where the whole thing is undemocratic.
British demcracy is erodding very fast unless England is granted some form of power for it's self.
Why should we allow Scottish MP's to vote on English issues when they do not affect their constituents what's so ever!
Labour has no interest in this policy what's so ever because a labour manifesto would never be implemneted in England.
Also could IKote that legislation that is unpopualr such as foundation hospitals and top-up-fees has only passed thanks to the Scottish vote. They wouldn't dream abour charging 3k a year to their stutdents but do to English people. Rediculous!
I'm talking about this....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5137930.stm
About how Scottish and Welsh MP's are allowed to vote on purely English issues that do not even affect their own constituents.
Labour were quick enough to give Scotland and Wales devolution but they missed out England. Claims were made how the Conservatives made life so horrible for the poor old Scottish people, they were quick to forget they get more funding than us!!! We pay more taxes than they do.
They also quickly forget how it's a British parliament and not an English parliament. Yes there are a majority of English MP's but what do you expect when England is the largest country?
If the majoirty of MP's happen to be Conservatives then you have to accept that, even though a particular region has voted differently.
As for the poll tax claim, Thatcher basically needed an area where she could implement this policy to see how it worked out. I probably would of picked Scotland too. It is a middle size region in terms of population, should get a good analysis there. Anyway, the poll tax has gone and they only had it for 1 year so this is hardly a big claim. Further, England eventually was hit by the poll tax too so we were all affected by it. So, Scotland, stop feeling sorry for your selves.
So in 1998, Devolution was granted. Both Wales and Scotland could of had devolution in 1979 but both countries had inadequate support for such move.
So, both countries were given some independent powers. We all know about the soverignty issue but put this aside as Westminister wouldn't bother interfearing in Scottish affairs.
This brought a two tier government for both countries, mostly for Scotland than Wales.
Scotland was given executive powers where they could make legislation in certain areas granted by Westminster and also had a tax varying power. This had meant that democestic issues would be very different from mainstream Britain. Wales wasn't granted as much powers but is slightly different to England on issues such as education and health.
English issues were left to Westminster as usual. This meant any MP regardless of where they came from could vote on English issues. This also meant that any proposal in the manifesto to do with domestic issues wouldn't even apply to devolved institutions. This meant that general elections for Scotland and Wales were not as important, even though turnout is higher than for their devolved elections.
Legislation such as tuition fees, education bill, health bill to name a few would be in the hands of the westminister parliament and decisions could be made by all MP's whether they are English, Scottish or Welsh or even N.Irish.
Gordan Brown is set to become the next MP. He represents a Scottish constituency. How on earth can he legislate for us and tell us that this is what we need when he isn't doing the same for his own constituencies. The English didn't vote the guy in for gods sake. This is where the whole thing is undemocratic.
British demcracy is erodding very fast unless England is granted some form of power for it's self.
Why should we allow Scottish MP's to vote on English issues when they do not affect their constituents what's so ever!
Labour has no interest in this policy what's so ever because a labour manifesto would never be implemneted in England.
Also could IKote that legislation that is unpopualr such as foundation hospitals and top-up-fees has only passed thanks to the Scottish vote. They wouldn't dream abour charging 3k a year to their stutdents but do to English people. Rediculous!
0
Comments
There's a lot of truth in what you're saying. I do think that, now Scotland and Wales have their own 'power houses' that their representation in the UK Parliament needs to be looked at again. I personally would have no problem with that. But two groups of people would. First, our political parties. Blair's cabinet is dominated by Scots. Imagine what would happen if Blair implemented these changes. Most of his cabinet could no longer vote on his own legislation. And let's not forget our own Prime Minister could only continue to vote because his constituency is Sedgefield, though he was born in Edinburgh.
Let me clear one thing up now. I have no problem with the Scots as a people. I don't accept these media stereotypes that they're a bunch of chippy, miserable gits. They tend to be far kinder than most of the English and the Welsh that I speak to on a daily basis, that's for sure. The second problem is, would the other nations accept this? Can you imagine the Welsh and the Scots tolerating the sudden drop in their standard of living? If it wasn't for the prosperity of South-East England, (and other economic powerhouses in the UK) we'd all be stuffed. Wales would become a third-world country overnight, and Scottish subsidies would suddenly disappear.
Notice how quiet Gordon Brown is on this issue? Come on Gordon, tell us what you think...
Furthermore, Brown has been going on about Britishness to united us all, to make us believe that there is no conflict between English and Scottish issues. Plus he somewhat supported England at the world cup.
Who's saying Scottish people are nice? I don't care what they're like. I'm just concerned about how they are allowed to vote on issues that will affect me even though I didn't vote for them!!
England is definiately the power house of the U.K. However, is again is not the issue. The issue is that Scotland is inaffect ruling England, when we don't rule them.
BTW, yes I always read HYS on the BBC. BUt i have gained most of my knowledge of this by studying it at college.
To the Tories: shut up. Stop stoking up tensions, get some policies and start doing what taxpayers pay you millions to do each year - oppose this fucking dreadful government. There's plenty to berate them on - deficits in the NHS, falling standards in our education system, the illegal conflict in Iraq. How about an admission it was stupid to support this war, and a full apology for going along meekly with the government's lies? Cameron really does piss me off. Just like Blair, the man seems to have no principles or ideas.
is the current situation right? As it isn't acceptable.
(1) Labour remains quiet about this, because its more contentious legislation such as top-up fees would have not got through without the support of Scottish MPs, and also because half the Cabinet represent Scottish constituencies themselves. They don't want to slag off their own representatives, do they?
(2) Tories remain noisy about this, because Chameleon prefers to pander to what the Daily Mail is saying instead of thinking up some proper policies.
What "state"
There are other 'socialist' states in Europe too. Spain for Example. And who are "we" who do you speka for. In my eyes The tories are alienating the rest of the UK to try and gain a few xenophobic English votes.
Shit got to go down town, I'll carry this on later.
I just don't see the problem with equality. England votes Tory, we have tory. simple.
They are not 'ruling' Britain. There are far many for English MP's than there are Scottish and Welsh. Before devolution the will of the English was imposed on the rest of the UK. Is that just as fair?
(hmm escapism...)
Yes there are more English MP's than Scottish but that's because England has a bigger population. However, ther are far too many Scottish and Welsh MP's that can vote for legilsation that will be imposed on people that did not elect them.
Such as top up fees. Oppose it for their own constituents but impose it on the English.
An MP cant oppose it for their own constituency and impose it on the english, they only have one vote
you dont seem to understand the way parliament in the UK, and then specifically in the scottish and welsh parliaments work
Well since the overwhelming majority of British citizens live in England it's not surprising that there are more MPs representing English constituencies. That said Wales and Scotland are still (even post-devolution) massively overrepresented in Westminster.
Scotland and Wales are part of the UK, like Yorkshire is and like Buckinghamshire is - all are represented in Westminster and if you support the existence of the UK there is nothing unfair about the party with the greatest seats at Westminster forming a government with jurisdiction over the whole of the UK.
Prior to devolution overrepresentation of Scotland wasn't a problem, with Scotland in particular, (less so Wales) it was a justifiable state of affairs. Scotland with a tiny population in contrast to England and as a distinct country with a separate and distinct legal system, its own education system and a strong national identity without overrepresentation might have suffered. However, since Scotland has its own devolved government with an independent executive and the Scottish Parliament extensive legislative powers it's bizarre for MPs representing Scottish constituencies in Westminster to be able to vote on matters that have no impact on their constituents because they're devolved matters. (Admittedly the Scottish Parliament has no jurisdiction on stuff like defence, foreign affairs and energy but its legislative powers still include health, education, transport, etc. And it's on this stuff Scottish MPs at Westminster should not be able to vote on).
At the time of Labour's introduction of devolution some Conservatives argued that it would lead to the eventual disintegration of the union, I think time might prove them right unless the problems devolution has created are solved. (And barring MPs representing Scottish constituencies from voting on English issues does still invariably undermine the union and Westminster - but it's an inevitable demand that devolution has created).
The Welsh Assembly is a bit different, it has no independent executive powers in law unlike the Scottish Parliament. The Welsh Assembly also lacks primary legislative powers - which are reserved to Westminster. (But the government are currently trying to change this with the Govt of Wales Bill). Its democratic mandate too is a bit spurious. (50.3% voted yes, 49.7% voted no – but only 50.1% turned out. So around a quarter of Welsh people supported the creation of the new Assembly. By contrast, in Scotland there was a 60.4% turnout and 74.3% yes vote).
A Scottish MP such as Gordan brown, can vote on a education bill that will not affect his own constituents but can vote infavour of it (impose it) for the English.
He can not vote on a education bill for his own country, unless he was elected via the scottish parliament.
Na you don't seem to understand.
SMP's - Scottish parliament - vote on powers that have been granted to the parliament by Westminster. Examples - Health and Education.
MP's (for the UK) - Westminister - these come from all the nations of the UK -vote on reserved powers and on all English legislation.
WAM - MSP''s - Welsh assembly- Doesn't have Executive devolution but there are votes on powers being granted by Westminister. Examples - Health and Education.
So, tell me, what don't I understand?
ummm......because he wouldn't be PM of England, he'd be PM of the UK?
You don't vote for a Prime Minister. You vote for the party you want to form the Gov't and they select the Prime Minister.
There seems to be major seepage between two arguments. The west lothian question is something that need to be looked at rationally and calmly then dealt with. Devolution is still in it's infancy and there were always going to be teething problems like this.
Unfortunatley it looks like it may descend into nationalist tub thumping (on all sides, the scottish nationals would never miss a chance to shout "FREEDOM!"), which accomplishes nothing except pushing a few electorate buttons and scoring easy votes.
No, Scottish MPs shouldn't be able to vote on purely English issues. But you can't cut them out of Westminister politics all together. There needs to be a clearer seperation between English and British issues.
Wow, I waffled. Sorry.
God, I hate politics.
How would the Scottish feel if David Cameron was the First leader in the Scottish parliament?
There is a simple answer...
Scottish Parlaiment
Welsh Parliament
N.Irish Parliament
English Parliament
All these parliaments will have devolved powers. Maybe a federal style government so Westminister can't over ride them.
Westminster would continue as normal butb would only legilsate on the reserved powers such as defence and trade.
It's a completely different and incomparable situation. The Scottish Parliament only has powers of Scotland and still has to answer to Westminister for a lot of it. Westminister still controls a lot of Scottish issues and so the Scots should still have a say.
The Labour manifesto I saw covers things that will affect the UK as a whole. So I really don't get the problem with having a Scottish Prime Minister, other than the jingoistic-PM-has-to-be-English point of view.
The PM represents Britain, therefore he could come from any one of the nations that make up the UK. Turning around and saying "Gordon Brown can't be PM, he's not English" just stirs up serious resentment.
I guess I just don't see why the PM should need to vote on every issue. It wouldn't suddenly make English issues irrelevant because it would still effect the lion's share of the party. It doesn't mean that less effort would be put into those bills and it really wouldn't affect the outcome of any votes.
The westlothian question is a valid concern but I'm at a loss as to why the Prime Minister can't be Scottish or Welsh. And saying "because the English didn't vote for him/her" doesn't just the mustard, given that the percentage of people in England who'd vote directly for the PM is miniscule.
ETA: Oh God, why am I even posting. I don't care about this or anything else like involving politics. Wake me up when politicans represent my view points in some way......
Mon and Tues Scots MPs sit in Holyrood, Welsh in cardiff, English in Westminster and they legislate on devolved matters, Weds and Thurs they sit in Westminster and legislate on UK matters. There would be one PM and each of the home nations would have its own first Minister (who may or may not be of the same party as the PM) based on the local number of MPs.
Yah, I can see the school he went to from my office window.
That is why a Scottish PM will be trouble.
Yes they vote on many issues that affect all of the Uk, these are reseved powers such as defence, trade etc. But domestic issues have been devollved apart from England, which they are in control of the Westminster parliament.
Which means Scottish MP's can vote on these despite them not affecting their own constituencies.
A Scottish PM will cause resentment in England, since we did not elect him, Scottish people did. But he will be champaining legilsation such as a education bill thast won't affect Scotland but England only.
Yes I know there is a party whip, but there are rebellions.
Thanks to the party whip, Scottish MP's will impose their party line on the English as it isn't going to affect them is it!!
yeh but their party line is the same as the english one