If you need urgent support, call 999 or go to your nearest A&E. To contact our Crisis Messenger (open 24/7) text THEMIX to 85258.
Read the community guidelines before posting ✨
Options
The "Islam Is Peace" campaign...
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
If a Muslim is drinking alcohol then clearly he/she is not following the religion of Islam (in that particular aspect).
If a vegetarian is eating meat then clearly he/she is not following the fundamentals of vegetarianism.
What do you mean by 'fundamentalist' anyway?
A fundamentalist is merely a person who adheres to the principles of a belief or set of ideas.
Would you say that a law-abiding British citizen to adheres to British law is a 'fundamentalist' too?
^ There aren't many takes on Islam. The message of the Quran and Muhammad is quite clear for anyone who reads it.
If anyone presents a 'take' on Islam which is completely baseless, then obviously it will be ignored and not taken seriously.
I could present a version of Nazism which says that Jews should be respected... but of course my version would be baseless.
^ Ok.
I want to self define myself as a vegetarian... but I'm also gonna eat meat.
Is that alright?
I'm also gonna self define myself as a Muslim... but I'm NOT gonna believe that Muhammad was the final messenger, and I'm gonna believe that eating pork is OK, and I'm gonna believe that there are TWO Gods.
Is that alright too?
I'm not trying to be funny here btw. Please lets not fool ourselves.
^ There are beautiful parts in even the worst ideologies.
I've read some beautiful things in some of the BNP's manifesto's too. I'm sure there were beautiful teachings in Mein Kampf too (eg, love your fellow Nazi, work hard etc). You could have a conversation with a murderer in prision and I'm sure he'd say some beautiful things too.
Threats of the hell-fire can certainly cause psychological damage and hinder peoples ability to think rationally.
And we all know that these threats exists in Islam and Christianity.
But then vegatarianism is not a religion, a vegetarian is simply somebody who does not consume products derived from the slaughter of animals. There's no other way around that...
Religion is by far more open to interpretation. I don't personally believe there are any real absolutes to it. For one, using Christianity as an example as I was raised by it.... Religious texts tend to contradict themselves. They have been changed over the years.
The fact there are different denominations of Islam and different practices globally goes to show that it must be interpretted in different ways by a diverse amount of cultures. Unless of course you are saying that one select group of people are correct.
Who would that be?
That does not surprise me.
Of course there will be. Principles such as love and friendship are universal, they span all religion.
Fair enough. However there appears to be a concern amongst many of us that Islam is being unfairly picked on at the moment in Britain and elsewhere while the other religions with similarly unpeaceful dogma are portrayed as being different. Sorry if the thread is not going the way you had expected. I suspect a number of us here would agree that Islam is not peaceful but would add 'but then again not are the other Abrahamic religions so time to end the witch-hunting'.
Maybe it's on the last page, just as there must be a disclaimer on the last page of the Bible that tells people the Old Testament is not really the word of God and they can pick and choose what to believe and obey.
Again, bottom line: in practice the peaceful majority of Muslims, Christians and Jews are perfectly capable of being followers of their religion without adhering to every last versicle contained within their holy book.
And (hopefully for the last time), no Christians are not allowed to pick and choose which parts of the OT they observe either.
(before I reply to the rest of your post)
Like it's left leaning economic policies and environmental policies?
What do you think I mean?
So while their advertising campaign might technically be incorrect, I can understand why the felt they had to do something about it. Because the majority of Muslims are no different from their Christian and Jew counterparts- and yet they are currently being demonised in some quarters- many of which have an agenda at work of course.
When the Old Testament stops being printed altogether, dissapears from the Bible and it is officially rejected by the heads of all branches of Christianity I would be more than happy to ignore the incitements to violence and bigotry contained within. At the moment that is not the case, and indeed a minority of Christians take the OT very seriously and as the literal word of God. For as long as this persists Christianity cannot be regarded as a religion particularly more peaceful than Islam- and there really is no way around that.
Incidenally the New Testament is not free of unnaceptable and hateful advice. Col. 3:22 and Titus 2:9 for instance fully endorse slavery.
My point is Teegan, that while Islam is not peaceful and not desirable for a healthy society, nor are the other main religions. What is happening at the moment in this country is paramount to persecution and it is only going to make things worse and make people dig in deeper, rather than be enlightened.
Can you show me a single ex-Muslim who has openly denounced their faith who hasn't got death threats hanging over their heads?
Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ehsan Jami, Maryam Namazie, Taslima Nasrin, Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, Mina Ahadi... I could go on. All of these individuals are living under police protection for the sole reason that they left Islam and questioned/criticised it.
If any of these individuals walked the streets of any Muslim majority country then chances are they will be killed.
They aren't even safe in Western countries. Theo van Gogh was killed in Amsterdam.
On the other hand... ex-Christians (of which there are many) are not being threatened with death and they're walking the streets of Western countries freely.
I agree on this.
And this.
I also don't see any difference in persecuting a group of people for religious reasons, or for political reasons and/or personal belief.
Persecution is human, not religious. Violence is human, not religious.
Religion is just sometimes used as another way to rationalise our own beliefs, prejudice and morals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFuJz0hA5rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfCpCU7gACE
It shouldn't surprise you that Robert Spencer has received numerous death threats too.
The IslamIsPeace campaign says that they want to have 'dialogue' with non-Muslims. This is one of their '5 point plans'. But how the hell can they have dialogue when every non-Muslim or ex-Muslim who questions or criticises Islam is faced with death threats!
Here's some more video's from Robert Spencer that you might want to see...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDUp0pqJmvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibVhjBcJuA
Who's advocating persecution? And do you see a difference in criticising someone's religious beliefs rather than political beliefs?
People have been tortured and killed for rejecting Christianity and/or its values. Just look at Chrisianity's bloody past, the witch trials for example.
It's quite simple, if Muhammad had not said this...
'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260
... then the death penalty for apostasy would not have been a part of Shariah law and many innocent apostates would've openly denounced their faith without fear of death.
I'm not accusing anybody of persecution here, prejudice maybe but definately not persecution.
But we are talking about Muslim persecution, whereas I believe it's human and often "justified" by religion, as I stated.
Which is precisely why Islam is bring criticised more than Christianity in todays world.
Considering the fact that most ex-Christians openly reject their faith in Western mainly Christian populated countries... I'd say that the persecution of ex-Christians is extremely rare compared to that of ex-Muslims.
Wouldn't you say the same?
Can you name me a single ex-Muslim who has openly denounced Islam who hasn't received death threats?
Baring in mind that openly denouncing Islam is a brave step on its own. I will probably live the rest of my life as a closet ex-Muslim. Thank God for the internet though.
I thought you were referring to a perceived persecution of muslims in this country, sorry.
But anyway, doesn't your opinion that religion is merely an excuse for violent acts or persecution of others assume that these people don't actually believe what they say they believe with regards to the supernatural and religious justification? Similarly, would the insinuation therefore also be that any good acts committed in the name of religion would also just be attributed to it, rather than it genuinely being the inspiration? And further, would this not therefore prove that religion has absolutely no worth to mankind, because everyone just does what they want anyway?
I didn't say that.
I said that people sometimes use religion as justification for prejudice and human rights abuses ect.
It is not "merely an excuse", but a system of belief which (I believe), as with other systems of belief can be used to bring both happiness and suffering depending on how it's used and by who.
If somebody uses their religion to rationalise why they should (for example) go out and help people on the street... If they use their religion to justify this then why not? I mean a lot of people are genuinely inspired by the concept of a God/s and this can manifest itself in different ways.
How?
Why do we ignore the plight of ex-Muslims?
Do you have a link for that?
I found several cases, but they're Moslems being sentenced for convering to Christianity (I also found a couple of cases of women being raped in India for convering to Christianity from Hinduism, but haven't referenced them because the source isn't as reliable as I'd like)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE170051996?open&of=ENG-KWT
and this
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA110082006?open&of=ENG-AFG
It was a part of their Christmas cards campaign a few years back. She deviated from their state religion, so they locked her in a kennel or something. I think I was in sixth form at the time (so maybe 3-4 years old).
Although I may be slightly wrong on the details... I'm pretty sure it was a church thing.
Its illegal in this country to threaten somebody with violence or death let alone to carry it out whether they are muslim or not. Other than that im not sure what could be done about it.
Those verses dont 'endorse' slavery at all. They do say that (Christian) servants/slaves ought to obey their masters. Why? Because it is by their meekness, humility and love that will draw the non-believer to their witness for Christ.
Hell is primarily the seperation of those non-believers from God. But this is irrelevant. I asked where 'hate' and 'violence' is encouraged.
But where is the 'hate' and 'violence'?
But where is the 'hate' and 'violence'?
This thread is turning out far better than I expected it would when I joined in, so no need to be sorry, dear Aladdin. The people who are willing to tell it like it is about Islamic ideology, and the way that manifests itself in the treatment of people in both muslim countries and the west, outnumbers those who try to spread their criticisms with so much multiculturalism that they effectively let Islam off the hook.
That is a hopeful sign.
And my point is that there are no calls by followers of JC to kill anyone in the New Testament and so it cannot be compared to Islam. The fact that there may be intolerant, bigoted 'Christians' out ther is more to do with the nature of mankind then any call by JC to wipe out non-believers.