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The "Islam Is Peace" campaign...
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Baal already posted this link about the subject of honour killings in Jordan
Here is the link about Jordan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm
Again, I am struck by your lack of interest in the subject presented, in favour of a dodgy tu quoque.
So laws about anal sex linger on statute books unenforced, and to the general disinterest of the general populace? How is that comparable to men killing women, while the law turns a blind eye, or gives at most, a slap on the wrist?
Or a situation where there is such widespread social acceptance of men killing their female relatives for perceived crimes against family honour, that the politicians refuse to reform the law.
And I hope you aren't going to try and tell us that Jordanian people don't get to elect their politicians, because they do. Jordan is about as democratic as you will find in the Middle East, aside from Israel.
I did watch some of it, but then I got caught up with the chatroom, sorry.
I'm not Muslim or living in egypt so I don't know what you're trying to convince me of.
The whole discussion has gone over my head a bit, I was just pointing out some of the links weren't valid, then I thought you were calling me names which I don't like, but I was probably too hasty in making that judgement. Sorry mate!
Anyway you make a valid point, the origins of FGM long pre-date Islam, or any of the other Abrahamic faiths for that matter. As far as we know it originates from Pharoanic Egypt, from whence it spread across the Middle East and Africa.
Valid as that is, it doesn't change the fact that if the practise is ever going to be stamped out the cultural and religious values held by the people who practise it have to be challenged. And its no good us kaffirs, (ie non-muslims), reassuring everybody this has nothing to do with Islam. They will not listen to us. Other muslims need to campaign against it and declare it unIslamic. They will have difficulty, given that hadith where their Prophet okays it, but good luck to the (mostly) women who are trying anyway.
In fact maybe the muslims behind this ad campaign would be better employed that way, instead of signs on London buses telling everybody Islam is Peace. That's not going to change anything, is it?
I don't think there's any need for that SHyboy simply posted information from a different source. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that - but if you want a debate you have to accept there's other viewpoints, and it naturally followed yours could be wrong or right. No one is keeping score here.
On the gravity of the crime they're not comparable of course. On an instance of a wrong and unfair law that has outlived its social relevance but continues to exist is a very fair comparison.
Jordanians get to choose from the pre-approved candidates allowed to stand. Don't go thinking they have much to choose from or opportunity for change. Try to start a new party and see how long you get.
It could be that they are quite worried about the increasing verbal and sometimes physical abuse muslims of both sexes have been subjected to in the last 6 years. If you are worried you're going to have your face kicked in soon I should imagine trying to convince your neighbours and fellow citizens you are not a violent extremist takes priority over seeking reform of Islam- a move that would probably make their situation worse in the short term.
Which is something that some posters here appear to have overlooked. Yes, the campaign might be untrue. But think of what it is trying to achieve, and why it has appeared now.
So is it members of the ruling elite carrying out these honour killings, or members of the muslim community at large?
You have that the wrong way round. Its not an old law lingering on the statute books, if you read the article on Baal's link you will find it was an opportunity to pass a new law against an horrific practise which retains widespread social relevance, and acceptance. So widespread that the politicians refused to tackle it.
Yes, I know. And I have to reiterate that sadly, that is still more democratic than the rest of the Middle East, (except Israel).
Oman?
It is dishonest Islamic propaganda and anyone who is well-informed on Islam can spot the lies from a mile off and see exactly what their agenda is.
Not once did the condemn any of the Islamic terrorists or any of the Imams around the world issuing inhumane fatwas.
All they're trying to do is present a rosy (dishonest) Islam to the gullible Westerners to hopefully gain more converts.
I do apologize to the people of Oman.:razz: Yes, they had their first elections in 2003.
1. Everyday for several month, on the last page of the 2 major Egyptian newspapers destined to a market of a 70 Million people, there is half a page with colors advertising Haj (pilgrimage) or shopping in Mecca. Every day every day that in people everyday language, they say: "Hope you have a happy haj" instead of "Good Day". That is an extremely expensive marketing campaign.
2. When the Country is starving for hospitals and schools, 25-40 Million US$ are being regularly built with Saudi money.
3. The donations of Saudis to the local egyptian terrorist group "The Islamic Brotherhood" is in the Billions by now.
4. Every year Saudi makes 2 Billion US$ from Egypt alone during Haj. And Egypt is only 6% of the entire islamic Umma. And 2 Billions US$ is insane money. Consider Egypt makes 1 Billion from Oil and metals. 1 Billion from Suez and 2 Billion American Aid that goes to Saudi for Haj.
5. So giving Saudi 2 Billion US$ is the same value as giving Saudi control of the Suez Canal and all the Egyptian Oil. Every year.
6. Haj is considered a strategic income to Saudi.
7. Saudi is just investing a portion of their Haj income for 'Haj Marketing'. Saudis need to make sure the populations are so entrenched into islam. So willing to associate Haj with Paradise that they will ignore every bit of self-preservation and every gut feeling and every attempt by their governments to subdue them and prevent them from squandering their life savings to send their money out of their country (local economies).
8. It is the greed of the Saudi (and who can blame them) that will prompt them to maintain the status quo of islam in the form of a wahabi cult.
This is not about anal sex or useless sodomy laws. There is nothing moderate about a country that supports the state-sponsored murder of their women. There is nthing moderate about a country that play their prayer on loud speakers on every single mosque even if it is just a basement converted into a mosque. They start praying at 4-5am. You can have 3-12 mosques in your neighbourhood and they start within minutes of each other. And some have voices worse then others.
So you end up losing sleep because some people want to pray! That is not moderate. That is not a pick-and-choose-your-verse from the koran society.
Promises of 'rewards from Allah' and 'a high place in paradise' are constantly used to get as much money out of us as they can...
... and this money does not go to charity to help/feed the poor. Almost all of the donations go towards building new mosques or Islamic centres.
I don't want to say which town/city I am from, but there is a huge project to build a large Islamic centre under way in my city/town and almost all of the money that is donated in our mosques goes towards the cost of that.
And collections go towards the village church roof, so what? Surely if Islam was so violent it would all be going towards terrorism, not exactly the same thing money for religions has always gone towards - those Cathedrals didn't build themselves and the Vatican ain't exactly full of paupers. Again your just describe the problems of any massive organised religion but dressing it up as something different about Islam.
In Egypt, every Imam has to be blessed/trained in Azhar. And the Azhar teachers have been getting massive Saudi grants and free-haj trips. Pakistan, I do not need to dwell on it, we know the Madrassas are Saudi funded. The Pakistani are even bragging about their Saudi schools.
In fact to the best of my knowledge, Saudi are funding islamic movements and islamic schools in every islamic country with the exception of Iran (Shiia) & Libya & Iraq during Saddam time & the richer Oil princedoms. I would be interested to know which other islamic countries are resisting the Saudi donations.
Khaddaffi might be a nut but he is not stupid. He banned any religious book or CD or Cassette to enter his country unless approved by the state first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sects
You just erected a strawman there.
It is a nuisance, but it isn't the reason why Islam is violent. Islam is violent because of the violent teachings of Muhammad who is considered the perfect example for all time.
ps. I'm mid-way through this thread. Maybe it's sorted it's self out now. :nervous:
As I mentioned before, there is only ONE Islam, there is only ONE Quran, and there was only ONE Muhammad.
The common denominator of all of these so-called "sects" is the Quran, and teachings of Muhammad, and that is what I am focusing on.
Well it's an entirely connected issue - there's absolutely nothing wrong with following what you believe in. You've done nothing to convince me Islam is a violent religion by it's nature - so all I can see from your example is people are pious in that country.
Sorry you don't get to decide that/ It's absolutely central to this debate and will feature continually and strongly.
3:118: “O you who believe! Take not as your helpers or friends those outside your religion since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the verses if you understand.”
3:178: “And let not the disbelievers think that Our postponing of their punishment is good for them. We postpone the punishment only so that they may increase in sinfulness. And for them is a disgracing torment.”
5:14: “And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection, and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.”
5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as friends, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the wrong doers.”
5:73: “Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no god but Allâh. And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.”
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”
8:39: “And fight them until there is no more disbelief in Islam and the religion will all be for Allâh Alone...”
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”
Koran 9:5
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Many of those sect leaders have succumbed and are accepting Saudi money and Saudi books and Saudi approved sermons.
The common denominator of all of these so-called "sects" is the Quran, and teachings of Muhammad, and that is what I am focusing on.
Do you get it now?
As others have repeatedly stressed - if Islam has different interpretations based upon different sects then those sects are very, very relevant and important.