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The "Islam Is Peace" campaign...
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The sad fact is that when you do realise that Islam is a violent religion by its nature... your ego will probably prevent you from admitting it on this forum because of your current comments.
You want to convince me of something - convince me. I'm reading everything your posting (god help me I have to)
Was that directed at me????????
That was the first time I posted anything from the Qur'an. And you are the one who asks for sources if someone asserts anything as fact. I am asserting that there are violent passages in the Qur'an and giving you the source. What's the problem?
Hey, just saying when we've got about 100 quoted passages already, and people are still debating the issue then it doesn't move things forward to post the same things again
Let me make it clear...
If you insist on talking about "sects", then understand that there isn't a single sect which will go against the teachings of the Quran and Muhammad.
Now seeing as I am basing my whole arguments around the common denominator (ie the Quran and teachings of Muhammad)... the subject of "sects" in this discussion therefore becomes irrelevant.
I'm sorry if you see me as patronising, but I sincerely don't think you are understanding my point.
Let me help you out...... there isn't one!
Every major Islamic school of jurisprudence agrees that the punishement for apostasy is death... as preached by Muhammad.
Universal Sufism
Doesn't matter if something is a major sect or not - we're talking about all possible versions of Islam here.
Islam in its current rigid form is causing problems to people who have to live with muslims.
You have a point that islamic sects are irrelevant since all of them will lead to the same problem. I also reached that conclusion. Jim however did not reach that conclusion yet, and he might decide never to reach it.
As such, I think considering sects is relevant to this conversation.
I will go pick someone up and will not be available for another hour.
http://www.al-islam.org/laws/najisthings.html
My point isn't to propose myself as an expert on Islam (although thanks for the compliment) - just to propose that practical interpreatation of a religion is relevant. So I'm not going to run through rings for you. I'm just saying I'm not convinced by your arguements and the debate deserves to be as broad as possible.
I'm also unclear cheeta - why does what is clean or unclean in a religion make it a religion of violence?
Muhammad did say afterall that the ummah will be split into 72 sects... but only the one who is following the Quran and Muhammad will be on the straight path.
But again we go back to that term 'true'. Certain sects, either by numbers of history don't get to be 'true' Muslims. Just because someone says that this group is more true than another means they actually are.
You seem to want more openess, more flexability and wider criticism internally in Islam - don't you see that by using the term 'true' to describe, for example fundamentalist Muslims, you reinforce their message - you stengthen their message everytime they say it.
It's exactly the same arguement that has moved through Christian communities for the last 30 years or so - and is exactly why Chrisitian fundamentalists claim to be 'true' Christians - it's exactly how Henry VIII justified religious violence.
There isn't an automatic 'true' Islam - at least in my eyes. There can't be - God doesn't exist. So all there are people claiming to be 'true' Muslims. There's no need to strengthen the positions of fundamentalists by support their claims
It is possible to practically interpret Nazism too, and would it be relevant?
We're not going back over this. You can't claim something is evil just because you'd like other people to think it is.
As was stated before to use Nazism as an example is simply a attempt to strengthen your position using something that isn't comparable. A nine year government that invented it's own race religion isn't the on the same level.
The question should be - is it relevant to look at the writings in a holy book and also look at the practical modern application of a religion. That's why people have brought up christianity repeatedly.
It's entirely relevant to bring up the fact that religion exists in a continual mix of society, personal belief, practical application and theological interpretation. By saying a religion is evil you imply that every good of a Muslim is in spite of their faith, every bad act because of it. I just think you have a very narrow view defined by your perspective.
But that doesn't convince me you've got the right perspective and just saying something is evil doesn't make it so.
A "true" Muslim is one who follows/agrees with the teachings of the Quran and example set by Muhammad.
That is what a "true" Muslim is.
Now if you show me a sect which believes in something which goes against the Quran and Muhammad, then it won't have a leg to stand on and you cannot consider it to represent Islam.
... tell me then how DO we establish whether Islam is evil/intolerant/violent or not?
I will reply to the rest of your post tomorrow.
93% of muslims consider their religion important (78% very important).
48% of muslims never attend Mosque (6% on special occassions).
On Britishness:
53% of male muslims refer to Britain as "my country" compared to 45% of women. 55% of over-45s are likely to say "my country" compared to 44% of 18-25s.
42% of muslims over 45 believe "very strongly" that they belong to Britain and Islam. This drops to 30% in 18-24 year olds. Again, women are less likely to feel very strongly that they belong to both (34% compared to 42%).
On Integration:
94% of muslims disagree with the suggestion that muslims ought to keep themselves seperate from non muslims (81% strongly disagreeing with the suggestion).
43% of muslims would want their children to go to muslim schools that follow the national curriculum. But 44% would prefer a popular state school with good results.
36% of muslims would prefer to have muslim neighbours (40% disagree with this statement - I don't know whether this means they would prefer not to have muslim neighbours or they simply don't care, because there was a "don't know" option too). Again, women are more likely to want muslim neighbours, and older muslims are more likely to want muslim neighbours.
On Sharia law:
30% of muslims would prefer to live under Sharia law (54% would prefer British law, with 15% responding "don't know"). Again there is a discrepancy between older and younger muslims. 34% of 18-24s, and just 23% of over 45s would prefer sharia law. Equally, 19% of muslims claim that they would move to a country governed by sharia law if they were able to (70% wouldn't, the rest "don't know").
28% of muslims would like to see Britain as an Islamic state (45% of those who answered yes to the above question). 52% would not like to see Britain as an Islamic state. This is one that's a bit vague though, because you can't be sure if the responses are referring to an ideal world view, or whether they actually think Britain in its present state should be Islamic.
On Freedom of Speech:
78% of British muslims thought the publishers of the Danish cartoons should've been prosecuted.
68% think that Britain should throw out religious leaders who support terrorism.
31% think that free speech should be granted, even if it offend religious groups. 62% disagree with this statement.
Classifications based on the above responses:
29% of those surveyed were referred to by the report as "Staunch Defenders of Islam" - this referred to people who believe that those who insult Islam should be punished, leaders should be thrown out for pro-terror stances, agree with the cartoon publishers being prosecuted, and disagree that people should be able to say whatever they want regardless of offence to religious groups.
9% were identified as "Hardcore Islamists" - this referred to people with an identical opinion as "Staunch Defenders of Islam" but who also believed that leaders shouldn't be thrown out for pro-terror stances. Again, both women and younger muslims are more likely to conform to this position, though only by a couple of percent.
3% of muslims were identified as "Pro Freedom of Speech". This is basically the opposite opinion of "Staunch Defenders of Islam" including rejecting the opinion that leaders should be thrown out for pro-terror stances.
The remaining precentage presumably couldn't be catagorised in this way.
The next section is conspiracy theories about the holocaust, 9/11 and Diana, which I can't be arsed with.
63% of muslims believe that hostility towards muslims has increased since 7/7. 5% believe it has descreased. However, 77% of muslims claim that they have recieved no hostility personally. Of those who have: Verbal abuse 18%, physical abuse 3%, stop and search 3%, and police hostility 2%.
On terrorism:
22% believe that the July 7th bombings were justified by Britains stance on the war on terror. 31% of young muslims agree with this statement.
9% believe that it is acceptable for religious or politcal groups to use violence.
50% of respondents were surprised that the July 7th bombers were British-born muslims.
47% believe that a muslim who doesn't report a fellow muslim planning terrorist attacks is just as responsible as the person carrying out the attacks. 9% believe that the person is not at all to blame.
On Representation:
When asked who represents muslims in Britain, 57% were unable to answer, and 30% were not sure. Of those who did answer: 4% Muslim Council of Britain, 3% The Mosque, 1% Muslim Association of Britain, 1% Islamic Society of Britain.
On Women's Rights:
24% believe there is some truth in the statement that Islam treats women as second class citizens. Women and young people are more likely to agree with this statement.
63% believe that British society treats women with respect. Though second generation muslims are less likely to agree with this statement.
55% believe that wives should always obey their husbands. Men are more likely to agree with this tsatement than women (59% comapred to 51%).
40% believe that all muslim girls should go to girls only schools.
I don't know what all of this proves, but here's the report if anyone would like to read the entire thing. It's a pdf file by the way.
Personally, I would say the worrying thing is that younger muslims seem to be the ones taking a more hardline approach, which doesn't seem to suggest progress to me.
A friend of mind was mugged recently by somebody wearing an Arsenal replica shirt. Therefore all Arsenal supporters are muggers.
I should imagine their reasons to withdraw it are because they themselves are hardline Islamists, not because the practice is so popular and widespread.
Do you have any figures about the extent of the problem? You sure make it sound as if every over house down the street has been witness to an honour killing.
However it is not still a democracy, and the population of Jordan at large has a very restricted choice. Regardless of whether they would vote for it or not I very much doubt there is such thing as the Lets Get Rid of Honour Killings Party (or the Reform Islam Now party for that matter).
Does the Arsenal FC's manifesto or 'holy scripture' mandate the mugging of people like your friend?
And even if it did, would that mean that 'all' Arsenal supporters would necessarily have adhered to it? (even though they should).
Some girls are honour killed for merely dating and having boyfriends, even if they haven't had sex with them.
Islam only mandates the death penalty (by stoning) for adulterers... and unmarried people who commit fornication are to be flogged 100 times according to Islam.
I know what you mean man, does seem to be going around in ever decreasingly - less interesting - circles
I think unless something happens to actually make it a debate I'm just gonna close it and we can all move on.
It hasn't broken any of the forum rules. Just because some people are having difficulty following the discussion or are 'bored', it doesn't mean you have to close it for everyone else who want to debate and have something to say.
So come on people, if you're reading this and not posting then please do, otherwise it will get closed.
I don't know. Ask your Jordanian non-koran following friends. Third of the murders are for honor killing where the average sentence is 7.5 month.
I said Jordan is one of the more enlightened i don't know if someone else said it is a democracy. You have the King. You have the tribes & clans. Every clan elects a member that will represent it and then voting will happen. Some can call it Tribal Democracy, if you consider each tribe like a 'riding', when multiple tribes come together to rule themselves. They represent the wishes of their tribes and their tribes can remove them if they mess things up.