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The "Islam Is Peace" campaign...
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I think it's entirely reasonable to expect someone to criticise the religion they have the most knowledge about and have had the most contact with. It doesn't mean they wouldn't feel the same about other religions, they just don't know enough about it. Does the fact that other religions are as bad make any of the points levelled against Islam invalid? Incidentally, I don't agree that all religions are violent. People of all religions are violent, but the teachings aren't equally violent (in particular Eastern religions such as Jainism).
And yes, it is to be expected that he will talk about the religion he has the most knowledge on. But the focus shouldn't be on whether Islam is a violent religion or not, but on the fact that Islam is being singled out as a violent religion (therefore bad) while no mention is being made of the other equally bad and violent religions. I can't blame Muslims for being extremely angry and for feeling persecuted at the breathtaking double standards we're seeing today in Britain and elsewhere.
All the religions have a bloody history, that much is patently obvious, but to suggest that they're all equally violent, or at least all equally capable of having their teachings turned to violence, seems to me be an extremely naive position - and one which is probably born from the culture of non-criticism that seems to surround religion. The OP started a thread about the proclamation that Islam is a peaceful religion, so talking about the violence in Islam is hardly persecution.
Also: The fact that IWS has had to qualify his posts with 'i'm not talking about all Muslims when i talk about Islam' seems to me to be absolute testament to the absurd way in which religion gets treated with kid gloves. Frankly, it's fucking ridiculous. If you pop over to the thread on Horoscopes you don't see anyone treating proponents of the 'full moons affect my mood clan' being molly-coddled in case someone hurts their feelings.
If i think your political views suck, i'm going to tell you; if i think your religion sucks, i'm going to tell you.
I don't know much about Sufism if I'm honest. I really need to read up about it more.
But any thing that Sufi's do which goes against the teachings of the Quran or Muhammad will obviously be frowned upon by the 'true' Muslims who are following the authentic scriptures.
^ There is nothing nonsensical about that comment at all.
I just think that the the whole argument is tu-quoque and a red-herring, which it is.
If I was as well-informed about Christianity or Judaism etc as I am about Islam then I would say the exact same things about these religions too.
^ These 'fundamentalist' teachings are very much a part of the religion.
You can't separate the two. If you reject the fundamentalist teachings then you have essentially rejected the religion.
^ Please understand Jim V... Amir Khan or Jinnah or Malcom X or The Taleban or Imran Khan or whoever do not represent the teachings of Islam... the same way that my 'Muslim' friends who go clubbing on the weekend and down pints of lager don't represent 'Islam' either.
We are all individuals with different personalities who were merely born into this religion. How much of our behaviour is 'Islamic' is a different matter.
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For example, say have two friends. They are both 'Muslims'....
Friend1 prays 5 times a day, doesn't eat non-halal food ever, refuses to inter-mingle with the opposite sex, is married but wants a 2nd wife, and gives 2.5% of his wealth to charity (zakat).
Friend 2 hardly ever prays, eats the odd non-halal McDonalds burger, enjoys the odd glass of wine, works in an office with male/female colleagues, disagrees with the concept of polygamy, and also gives zakat.
^ Would you say that friend 2 represents Islam??? Or is friend 1 a better representation?
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Can we please STOP focusing on the various 'Muslims' that you come across in everyday life as if they represent Islam.
The only Muslim that we should be focusing on if we want to establish whether Islam is a peaceful religion or not is Muhammad.
^ Nazi's were taught a very harsh fundamentalist interpretation of Nazism too.
Nazism is really a peaceful ideology. :rolleyes:
Jim V, we can't just delete or ignore the harsh violent teachings of Islam and then claim that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion. This is political correctness gone mad.
The harsh and violent teachings are very much a part of the religion.
IslamIsPeace.org
... why isn't there a big advertising campaign which says something like:
ISLAM NEEDS TO BE REFORMED
or...
LETS LEAVE THE VIOLENT INTOLERANT TEACHINGS OF ISLAM IN THE PAST AND MOVE FORWARDS
Why do we insist that Islam is a peaceful religion when it clearly isn't? Why do we deny that violent and intolerant teachings even exist within the teachings of Islam?
This is all a part of the Islamic propaganda machine which is sweeping its way into Europe.
It makes me angry that this country that my parents came to from Pakistan in the late 60s because of all its freedom and opportunities is going downhill because of political correctness.
You really can't see why peaceful and moderate Muslims in Britain and around the world are extremely frustrated and angry at this unprecedented witch-hunt in the West? :rolleyes:
It's clear from the very campaign IslamisPeace.org.uk that there is an alternative perspective on Islam from the one you propose. What seems strange is that when someone says Islam can represent peace you say it can't be because it's automatically violent. Whereas when you say it's violent it should just be accepted as such automatically. If you want to put forward a personal view of Islam then that's fine - but to claim to know more about Islam than the many Imans involved in the Islam is peace campaign seems very arrogant and based on only one possible view of a faith - your own.
The only freedom I've seen curtailed and attacked recently seems to be the freedom of Muslims to peacefully practice their own long established religion with being attacked for their beliefs.
Since there's no such thing as god, all prophets are simply men and all religions are simply invented to satisfy an important need in manking then it's only in the actions of people who follow a faith that define what a faith is. I don't see how the Taliban represents the core of Islam as a whole any more than a christian fundamentalist killing abortionists represents christianity as whole, or the incest, rape and slavery of the old Testament for that matter.
It seems to be implied that because the Koran has violent passages it's always going to be violent because that's all it can be. If that's the case then how can you call for reform? You aren't presuming to change what was said by any of the prophets are you?
And let's stop using Nazi's as an example. It's a straw man arguement step up simply to fail. The Nazi's tutonic blood faith was invented simply to support the racial message of a dictatorship. To compare it to a world wide religion devloped in many different ways over 100's of years is pointless. If Islam is to be constructively compared to other religions then the starting point has to be the other two major monotheistic faiths, not the insane gutteral rantings of barbarity and ignorance that the Swastica represents.
I think you really overplay the part of religion, people like scapegoating, they like having 'the other' to blame for their problems, and frankly we seem to like having wars and killing each other. Religions or not we will continue to do this untill either we evolve into something better or we kill our species off.
I understand what you're saying, but religion is a fantastic facilitator - and one which is hugely widespread - of the tribal mentality that still appears to be so readily prevalent in the human psyche. It isn't in and of itself the problem, but it does lead very quickly to the much more base issue.
Communism or fascism have worked just as well in the past - I dont think its a unique feature to religion to be able to get people to hate each other.
Of course not, and i don't think anyone is suggesting it. But religion is the current topic, and it is excellent at drawing divisions between people.
What I am driving at is that these 'faults' are not really the fault of the religion itself. People get offended on behalf of God or Mohammed, and even kill on their behalf too - but I dont think you can put the blame for that on either the Bible or the Koran but on people.
Much better than "IslamIsPeace".
You're going to have to elaborate on that; it's a very woolly statement.
The Qu'ran advocates, and in some cases demands, abhorrent and immoral behaviour. As i'm sure you're aware in Islam the Qu'ran is the literal word of God. If someone believes they have divine instruction, i find that a very worrying world to live in.
Also, it's patently obvious to state that it's credulous people who carry out atrocities in the name of religion, but built into the whole belief system - of any religion - is ultimately the suspension of critical and rational thought; a sure retardation of the mind and dangerous system to have about.
It's amazing how much you don't know about Islamic propaganda.
If you want to go through that website and analyse it to see whether the claims they make about Islam are accurate or not then we can do so.
For example:
The website claims that Islam 'gave' women rights to inheritence 1400 years ago, and it gives the example of Muhammads wife Khadijah who was a successful business women.
What the website doesn't say is that Khadijah was a successful business women and she inherited her wealth before she married Muhammad and before the first 'revelation' of Islam was even revealed.
ie, she became a successful business woman in pagan Arabia so Islam had absolutely nothing to do with it.
I have a genuine challenge for you...
Read through the IslamIsPeace website and show us anything which impresses you and you think proves me wrong.
Copy+paste it on this website, and I will tell you whether its presented accurately or not.
Because it most likely wouldn't be.
Islam jurisprudence clearly states that women have the right to vote, seek an education, own property, financial independence, operate a business and receive equal pay for equal work.
^ That is an outright LIE... and I'm not surprised that they didn't quote any Quranic verses to back that up.
Because there simply aren't any.
It doesn't say anywhere in the Quran or sayings of Muhammad that women have the right to recieve equal pay or operate businesses or own property etc.
On the other hand, the Quran makes it quite clear that a husband should beat his wife if he fears disobedience:
Quran
Sura 4, Ayah 34:
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
I would have thought, with such an important axe to grind, that you are really raising a debate that would be best served on an Islamic bulletin board - where your message would be best suited to reach the greatest number of Muslims.
Do you get into debate with Muslim posters on Islamic bulletin boards? And, if so, where can we find these postings?
I don't know how to prove to you that I am... maybe if anyone wants to PM me their mobile number and I can ring them through a witheld number and recite some arabic or urdu or something???
btw, yes of course I post on Islamic forums. I do that all the time, but the moderation is quite strong on there so you can't really 'question' too much.
I'm not gonna say my username on them though.
I realise that my posts are limited to Islamic/Muslim issues... but that is purely for security purposes. I don't want to post as 'myself' as well and give too much info away about myself (I'm sure you know why). I usually have a separate account for any 'religous' discussions I participate in.
Again, this is a lie.
Whenever the word 'Jihad' is mentioned in the Quran or Hadith, it is almost always used in the context of holy war.
If we put the word 'Jihad' into an English/Arabic dictionary then look what it means....
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2MM.asp?Lang=E-A&Sub=%cc%e5%c7%cf
This is the Internet, dude. Just because people say that they are something on a board, doesn't mean that it is neccessarily the truth - so it is a little defensive of you to find it 'extremely annoying'. Why should anyone believe you?
However, I will take your word for it.
BTW: In case anyone was wondering i'm a 6'2" muscular Adonis who primarily works as fighter-pilot, but who also does a little male modelling on the side; i'm definitely not a web developer.
Of course it does, as does the Bible and the Jewish holy book which to my shame I have forgotten the name of. And followers of each of those religions feel that those books are the word of God and should be taken literally.
What I am trying to say is that violence in the name of a religion doesnt mean there is something inherantly wrong with that religion - people dont say there is something wrong with Christianity as a whole when an abortion doctor is killed - so why do the same for Islam?
I suppose it boils down to the question - is Islam an inherantly violent religion? And I'd say no, largely Muslim countries are just as violent as other countries in their economic class.
Yeah, but Jihad also means stuggle and this can be an internal struggle too. Words have many different connotations. It can also mean living a good life and improving the world around you and this does not have to mean violence.
I know many Muslims who are peaceful people and can back this up.
I find the fasting that Muslims do too to be very interesting (Hindus fast also), some of the concepts behind it.
What type of Muslim were you? Sunni, Shi'a or Sufic?
My problem is, any of us acan only have an opinion based on our own learning, from reading, experience, travel, the people we meet and so on.
From my experience of Islam, it is peaceful. But if the 'official' Islam is different, then perhaps it's a mute point because the 'real' Islam people exerience is not violent or hateful. Maybe that's what this "IslamIsPeace" campaign is about?
I am in no way condoning the violence that goes on in he majority of Middle Eastern countries, but you can't single them out for being bad when there're so many other countries which practice the same level of violation to human dignity.
This is something we can't prove though, the existance or none existance of God. We're all conditioned in to spirituality differently, so who's right?
But what is 'official' Islam?
Surely it's a diverse religion practiced differently around the world.