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why do we need the arms fair?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5227590.stm

i will be hoping to join the protest later this week, though i do risk arrest just going near the place...

the policing of the event comes straight out of the local council tax bill, and the arms fair does not bring anything to the local community but chaos, as there are more police taken off their beat, roads are closed ect...

i really don't think it should be there...and i'll be taking my feelings to the local mayor's question time...

why are these things even legal?
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because unfortunately the economy relies on these deals.. :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    not my local economy though!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You'd be surprised how much of the economy is tied up in arms dealings.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    but why does my council tax have to go to policeing it?

    why aren't the organisers paying for it?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not sure there's any facility for private sources to pay for policing is there?

    Maybe there should be.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm not sure there's any facility for private sources to pay for policing is there?

    Maybe there should be.

    pubs and clubs do
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "why do we need the arms fair?"

    to make money. a bit like a grad recuitment fair but more macabre

    "but why does my council tax have to go to policeing it?"

    hippy loons
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Arms fairs are unpleasant at best but there is not a chance in hell that they're going to stop under any government.

    A more realistic goal in the short term would be to ensure no land mines, depleted uranium ammunition or cluster bombs are marketed at such events. Or even better that any firm manufacturing such weapons is banned from attending.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ^^^

    I thought the sale of those was banned at arms fairs, certainly UK ones (apart from depleted uranium, IIRC very depleted stuff is still used in most bullets).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good. I don't know anything about it, was just hoping that was the case.

    Then again, IIRC the UK was shamefully using plenty of DU ammuntion during the Iraq war so obviously they're not too concerned about it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah! Britain should totally stop selling arms. Lets put thousands of hard-working British people out of a job! Lets bankrupt massive British companies that put billions into the economy. And whilst we wreck our arms industry lets watch French companies create thousands of French jobs and make billions for France - at Britain's expense. Oh and I'm sure US arms companies wouldn't mind filling in the gap by Britain either! Great!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Good. I don't know anything about it, was just hoping that was the case.

    Then again, IIRC the UK was shamefully using plenty of DU ammuntion during the Iraq war so obviously they're not too concerned about it.

    That's because we want our shells to penetrate tanks, not bounce off them.

    Most of the evidence suggests its off no harm to humans (well apart from those in the exploding tank).
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well for a start if people are there to protest about the policing bill, then thats a self fufilling prophecy, as if they stayed at home the policing bill would be less, and on another point, if we didnt have arm fairs, how else would we be expected to buy tina? Answer that i might ask
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    oh i forgot



























    Tina
    6fykxle.jpg
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah! Britain should totally stop selling arms. Lets put thousands of hard-working British people out of a job! Lets bankrupt massive British companies that put billions into the economy. And whilst we wreck our arms industry lets watch French companies create thousands of French jobs and make billions for France - at Britain's expense. Oh and I'm sure US arms companies wouldn't mind filling in the gap by Britain either! Great!

    Well fair enough. Just don't complain when someone you sell them to wants to, I don't know, actually use some of them. Maybe even for a purpose you don't agree with.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Arms fairs are unpleasant at best but there is not a chance in hell that they're going to stop under any government.

    A more realistic goal in the short term would be to ensure no land mines, depleted uranium ammunition or cluster bombs are marketed at such events. Or even better that any firm manufacturing such weapons is banned from attending.

    at least they're not selling torture equipment there this year, 2 firms have been removed for selling too restrictive leg shackles
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    at least they're not selling torture equipment there this year, 2 firms have been removed for selling too restrictive leg shackles
    Good. Now we need to stop British firms from manufacturing and exporting such items in the first place.

    How reassuring must have been for those British citizens who were arrested and tortured in Saudi a few years ago that the electric batons they were being tormented with were made in Britain :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i really don't understand how we can bollock on about bringing freedom, democracy and peace to the rest of the world and all the while selling arms to the most unstable nations and governments around the world, often fuelling conflicts by selling to both sides etc....the sheer hypocrisy of foreign policy is amazing, mark curtis' book is an excellent read i would recommend it...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well fair enough. Just don't complain when someone you sell them to wants to, I don't know, actually use some of them. Maybe even for a purpose you don't agree with.

    That's fine - we cut off the spares...

    If we sell weapons to France and France invades Germany a) we know lots about the capabilities and flaws of our own weapons we can tell the Germans and b) we can cut off the spares, so France quickly finds it has lots of broken down tanks on the road to Berlin.

    If the Russians sell weapons to France we don't have that leverage.

    France is going to buy weapons anyway, so we might as well get some money and some political leverage.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i really don't understand how we can bollock on about bringing freedom, democracy and peace to the rest of the world and all the while selling arms to the most unstable nations and governments around the world, often fuelling conflicts by selling to both sides etc....the sheer hypocrisy of foreign policy is amazing, mark curtis' book is an excellent read i would recommend it...
    But British joooooobs would be at stake! You don't want to risk losing British jooooooobs! We must continue to sell weapons to revolting theocracies, even if we have to break the law and give suitcases full of cash to dodgy princes, because of British joooooooobs!

    :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    But British joooooobs would be at stake! You don't want to risk losing British jooooooobs! We must continue to sell weapons to revolting theocracies, even if we have to break the law and give suitcases full of cash to dodgy princes, because of British joooooooobs!

    :rolleyes:

    I think the livelihoods of thousands of people in this country and the welfare of their families is important. Pointless moralising about arms sales - that has absolutely no effect whatsoever other than to put people out of work doesn't make sense.

    Some of the world's biggest tobacco companies are British. They too employ thousands of people and put billions of pounds into our economy. Since smoking can seriously harm people's health should the likes of Imperial Tobacco be banned from selling cigarettes all over the world? Or can you see that doing just that would just help Philip Morris and other foreign rivals create loads of jobs and bigger profits at the expense of British jobs and British profits?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But smoking is a voluntary activity. Getting electrocuted in the balls is not- well, apart from in S&M clubs, but you get my drift.

    In any case the much touted cry of "thousands of British jobs will be lost" is almost always invariably bollocks. Certianly in the case of BAE, an extremely successful company with £50bn worth or orders in their books, and which was suddenly going to collapse and go bankrupt if it wasn't allowed to sell Eurofighters to the extremely unpleasant theocracy of Saudi Arabia. Yeah right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the whole jobs argument is bogus because the government does nothing to protect jobs in other sectors, arms production and sales is all about politics and nothing to do with employment at the end of the day.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Like drugs, arms is a demand driven industry. If we don't do it, someone else will because they'll make money of it. At least we can account for all our deals, unlike some countries *cough*Russia*cough*. The NATO bullets used in rifles we produced (7.62mm or something lol) are designed specifically as they have a much greater chance of just incapacitating rather than killing. 9mm rounds create a large exit wound and are much more fatal.

    You'll be better off protesting to governments who want to buy these weapons - rather than those who sell them. Restricting the supply will only force it 'underground' and then who knows what will be sold.

    Weapons will always be made and traded, you can't stop it, you can only hope to change the way people think so that one day nobody will want to buy them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    MrG wrote: »
    Well for a start if people are there to protest about the policing bill, then thats a self fufilling prophecy, as if they stayed at home the policing bill would be less,


    That's kinda what I was thinking as well - Maybe the protesters should be contributing to the police bill .. :)

    I don't think the Original poster does herself any favours by choosing the cost of local policing as the main focus in this case ..

    Better to stick to the main issues instead .. as per the title of this thread.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm so sad I am missing the arms fair, i was suppose to go but got my operation on the 20th :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    ShyBoy wrote: »
    Like drugs, arms is a demand driven industry. If we don't do it, someone else will because they'll make money of it.

    all industries are like that, if there was no demand they'd go out of business.....

    if protecting jobs is that important, why is our own government trying to find a way to avoid buying the last 88 eurofighters of our order, most of the parts being made by BAE or EADS

    if we made good enough fighter planes, we could avoid selling to nasty regiemes as other democracies would purchase them off of us

    i don't see the americans, home of capitalism, flogging their F22s and other numerous advanced bombers either

    i ask you, should we sell chemical/nuclear weapons to other countries to whom we sell conventional weapons?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    oh, yes i am a hippy oh dislikes guns and and wants world piss and all the crap...

    but i also see the huge security implications of having thousands of weapons on display so near to central london...
    and what i dislike most is the fact that may nations that we have shunned for their practices are being allowed to come to this fair...hypocritical?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    oh, yes i am a hippy oh dislikes guns and and wants world piss and all the crap...

    but i also see the huge security implications of having thousands of weapons on display so near to central london...
    and what i dislike most is the fact that may nations that we have shunned for their practices are being allowed to come to this fair...hypocritical?

    I doubt the stuff they're bringing actually is active - i.e. they left the gun powder at home and only showing you empty shells.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hellfire wrote: »
    I'm so sad I am missing the arms fair, i was suppose to go but got my operation on the 20th :(

    Were you selling or buying?
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