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Queen may be scrapped from UK passports...

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Some of those proposals are not replacements of national equivalents but designed to work alongside.

    Currently work alongside.

    If the history of the EU has shown us anything it's that goalposts move. It's an free-market trading partnership, so why does it need any of those aspects?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    English Civil War killed more of the population as a proportion of England and Scotland than any other war. The bloodiest war in history (in terms of population engaged) was the Taiping rebellion (about half the Chinese population dead). In modern terms civil war, rebellion and unrest has been much more common and deadly than wars between states, eg Rwanda, Congo, fall of Yugoslavia and even minor 'wars' such as Northern Ireland. Even the rise of Mao was caused by a breakdown of an established social order which had previously been characterised by the Emperor.

    Lol, you do realise that practically everyone who ever killed anyone in a war or small scale conflict did so because of a sense of belonging to something bigger than themselves? Whether this is a small tribe or a huge dictatorship makes no difference.

    So yet again, no genuine positive reasons for the existance of the monarchy with a factual basis. Can I assume you have none?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You seem to agree with me - supporting the troops is perfectly possible without supporting the political purposes for which they're used
    I beg your pardon. I read it wrong and misunderstood who believed in what.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm, security, transport and everything else for the entire royal family plus the Prime Minister, or the same costs for one person. The maths does itself.

    You think tha tthere wouldn't be a Prime Minister, a "first family" successive security requirements for every surviving President/First Family?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You think tha tthere wouldn't be a Prime Minister, a "first family" successive security requirements for every surviving President/First Family?

    Do we currently pay security for former prime ministers? If so, there won't be any difference. If not, then we shouldn't for former heads of state either.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Hmm, security, transport and everything else for the entire royal family plus the Prime Minister, or the same costs for one person. The maths does itself.

    It doesn't really, though, does it. Particularly as the Head of State and other senior members of Government would need to do twice as much work as they do now.

    I don't understand the hatred of the monarchy, and to be quite honest, most people are still broadly in favour of the monarchy as head of state. Put it this way, I'd rather have unelected Charlie representing my country than I would Blair, Brown, Cameron or any of the other vote-grabbing nobheads.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Put it this way, I'd rather have unelected Charlie representing my country than I would Blair, Brown, Cameron or any of the other vote-grabbing nobheads.

    You are crazy.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Helpful post that :rolleyes:

    Prince Charles says more about what I agree with than any of the major politicans...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Prince Charles says more about what I agree with than any of the major politicans...

    So just because you agree with him then he should rule unelected? You are crazy, thank fuck those days are behind us.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yerascrote wrote: »
    So just because you agree with him then he should rule unelected?

    Go back and actually read what I said...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    Go back and actually read what I said...

    Ok, so you'd prefer an unelected leader to rule just because you agree with them than an elected leader that the masses have voted for? Take it you have no problems with dictators?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually read what I said will ya?

    THe monarch hasn't ruled in the UK for - what? - 300 years?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Kermit wrote: »
    I'd rather have unelected Charlie representing my country than I would Blair, Brown, Cameron or any of the other vote-grabbing nobheads.
    Kermit wrote: »
    Prince Charles says more about what I agree with than any of the major politicans...

    It's there plain to see. And what has the monarchy not ruling for over 300 years got to do with it. Your intentions are clear, you'd rather a person to lead unelected just because you agree with them than someone voted in by the masses.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    Some of those proposals are not replacements of national equivalents but designed to work alongside.

    Funny how many cry foul, for instance, about the possibility of an EU defence force while having no complaints about NATO. In fact, it usually turns out that the most vocal critics of the EU proposals are actually ardent supporters of NATO and indeed of other alliances and subjugations that undermine the sovereignty and independence of the UK in far greater measure than the EU could possibly achieve.

    As for the other measures, most of them make sense to me, I don't see those that don't as an attempt to create a federal superstate and destroy national sovereignty. You might agree or disagree about the wisdom of having a European Central Bank (though the way things are starting to turn out, it is not such a daft move at all) but rather than a masterplan to create a federal state I see an attempt to streamline and simplify financial transactions and trade amongst a club of nations.

    To be honest in NATO each nation has the right to go over any foreign commander and appeal to their national government, the EU Defence Force was suggesting taking that away. Within NATO the UK army remains different (training, doctrine, equipment) from the the Dutch (thank God). The EU Defence Force was aiming towards a unified force.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Lol, you do realise that practically everyone who ever killed anyone in a war or small scale conflict did so because of a sense of belonging to something bigger than themselves? Whether this is a small tribe or a huge dictatorship makes no difference.

    So yet again, no genuine positive reasons for the existance of the monarchy with a factual basis. Can I assume you have none?

    From the man who's argument veers more than a drunk on a bicycle I'm not sure that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Your argument seems to be that unelected leaders are bad, but then you even admit that the Crown has no leadership powers

    I am arguing from a practical basis that nation states exist and people identify with them. Things that weaken that identification tend to lead to violence, either in short or long term. I'm sorry if living in the real world, rather than pretending that we live in a perfect utopia, offends you.

    If it helps I agree in a perfect world we wouldn't have any leaders or countries and we would all love our neighbours, ice cream wouldn't be fattening and Kirsten Dunst would believe in free love.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    budda wrote: »
    Does it make any difference what so ever if she is on it or not? I doubt it is the power of the Queen which prevents customs from anal probing us every time we leave the country.

    every time we leave the country?looks like you've got a bad run of things!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    i say just wipe the lot of the royal family out ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Perhaps, Aladdin part of our "national identity" is in being a free island state ruled solely by UK citizens elected by UK citizen.

    Is there something wrong with that?
    No of course not. And when that is in danger of changing you should fight it tooth and nail.

    I haven't seen anything yet that suggests that might happen.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Frankly I'd rather be a citizen than a subject, have a Head of State that is removable by the people every four years, and have separation of Church and State. But that's just me. *



    * I know I'm not British but there is a very similar situation in Spain- I'm speaking about the general concept of monarchy vs. republic.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Runnymede wrote: »
    I'm sorry, you guys are right. The gradual destruction of your country's national identity, to be supplanted by an artificial identity isn't a big deal at all. Carry on your normal business.
    Speaking of national identity, I found the way the BBC covered the news that the EU is finally giving up its attempt to force metric measurements on us to be laughable. They said this was a major retreat. Hardly. A major retreat would be if the faceless morons who run the EU said "yep, you're right, we've taken too many powers for ourselves, have them back, this is meant to be just a trading block, not a United States of Europe". Somehow, I doubt that would make the Beeb's news bulletins - stories about know-nothing old Etonians who want to tax you for parking at Tesco are more important...

    I would far rather have a monarchy than a president. Do we really want our own version of Dubya in charge? Or maybe a corrupt old fool like Mr Chirac as our head of state? I wouldn't. The monarchy works well at present - however, when Her Majesty dies, we will need to look again at this.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Britain and France have more to lose here than anyone else. As part of these proposals affecting passports EU member state embassies outside the EU would effectively become EU embassies. A British embassy outside the EU would be forced to make no distinction between British and other EU citizens in providing assistance. Indeed, member states embassies outside the EU would probably be eventually rebranded as EU embassies. Fair enough perhaps - a good deal for the likes of Luxemburg, Latvia and Malta but not great for Britain, France, Spain, Germany. And if you reject the idea of a United States of Europe it's somewhat worrying. Already, there's co-operation (for instance in some remote islands in the Pacific British citizens can easily receive assistance at the NZ or AU embassies) and it makes sense for this to apply in the EU, but it does seem a bit unfair for those with more to lose, i.e. Britain/France. - Lets remember, informally and in practice it does apply to some extent anyway, as it does with AU/NZ.

    As for the passports issue it's somewhat simple-minded to see it as a republican/royalist issue. It's about essentially a loss in the status for HM's government, what you think of the Queen doesn't really come into it. As far as the monarchy goes, it works. And not just for Britain; Canadians, New Zealanders and Australians aren't in any hurry to become republics. I'm not sure how becoming a republic would save money either, most French presidents have made the Queen look pretty frugal.

    The Queen herself does an outstanding job of representing Britain and is incredibly well-informed... whilst Charles will have a hard act to follow the present system works and nobody has convinced me that we'll be better off by mucking about with it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    every time we leave the country?looks like you've got a bad run of things!

    oooh, he loves it really!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    stargalaxy wrote: »
    I would far rather have a monarchy than a president. Do we really want our own version of Dubya in charge? Or maybe a corrupt old fool like Mr Chirac as our head of state? I wouldn't. The monarchy works well at present - however, when Her Majesty dies, we will need to look again at this.
    The problem with that is that if you end up with a monarch who is a corrupt old fool, you have to wait for them to die. At least the Americans and the French have the chance to get rid of their presidents after 4 years.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The problem with that is that if you end up with a monarch who is a corrupt old fool, you have to wait for them to die. At least the Americans and the French have the chance to get rid of their presidents after 4 years.
    But Dubya's still there after seven years... and they've got to wait another year before they can finally say goodbye to your favourite ever US president. :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But the Presidents in France and the US are totally different than other countries. Most Presidents are just there to meet and greet people and show off their particular nation. Same as what the Queen does really.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As for the passports issue it's somewhat simple-minded to see it as a republican/royalist issue. It's about essentially a loss in the status for HM's government

    Exactly.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    And when that is in danger of changing you should fight it tooth and nail.

    I haven't seen anything yet that suggests that might happen.

    You mean apart from the fact that the EU have legislative power, without the UK citizens having voted for it?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote: »
    The problem with that is that if you end up with a monarch who is a corrupt old fool, you have to wait for them to die. At least the Americans and the French have the chance to get rid of their presidents after 4 years.

    But in a modern constitutional democracy that can't happen. The monarch has no real power but acts as a figurehead, whilst the PM has the real power but none of the figurehead duties. But crucially the system is set up so that both parties are reliant on each other for power.

    The cost of the monarchy is minimal, and to even think that the cost would be less with an elected President is ludicrous. At the very least the cost of the election itself would be more than the 63p per year we spend on the current monarchy, who do a perfectly good job, and probably do a better job than the elected leaders.

    I certainly wouldn't see Two Jags Prescott in Cumbria fighting to keep a local pub open...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Apparently the royalty bring in money. Though I don't care how much money they bring to the state, I still disagree with the fact that MY taxes pay for their shoe-habits. No one fucking funds me to have a 10-minute spree going out the shop with shoes amounting up to the worth of 5 grand, as it happened over here.
    It pisses me off!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You mean apart from the fact that the EU have legislative power, without the UK citizens having voted for it?

    Balls.

    We vote for our representatives. Same as our own courts tbh. I don't recall voting on Tuition Fees, do you? It's a moot point.
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