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Uni Massacre...
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6560685.stm
My thoughts are with anyone involved. When will America realise these things will keep happening if guns are freely available.
My thoughts are with anyone involved. When will America realise these things will keep happening if guns are freely available.
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Sadly cant see that happening anytime soon. The gun lobby is far too powerful in US politics.
:thumb:
Their argument is that this is a price worth paying for such freedoms.
Anywhoo, sympathy for the families involved.
Guns are freely available in Canada. And US states with strict gun laws such as California don't have lower gun crime than some states with lax gun laws. Some controls on gun ownership make sense but I don't think such controls will prevent awful stuff like this sometimes happening. Anyway thoughts with those involved.
I'm making my point because I'm horrified. Are you not horrified? I do feel sorry for the people and the families I really do and i am shocked an appauled that you accuse me of making a political point. I dont think guns should be available full stop. I thought that before and i thought that now. Chances are the weapons were acquired in a legitimate outlet. Probably.
Is there a better time to start asking questions? If not how should it be left, a week, a months. Do you think that the grieving families will ever stop grieving?
I wasn't really accusing you of making a political point... I just can't really be bothered to stick around to see people start regurgitating Bowling for Columbine, coming out with the redneck gun nut stereotypes and the 'NRA are evil' line...
You don't think guns should be available 'full stop'? Easy to say I suppose for somebody completely ignorant of the way of life in many parts of America. Hunting is big in many parts of North America; it's still a way of life in parts of Alaska untouched by supermarkets, for most others it's a pastime I suppose...but it's a big cultural thing that's not going to change.
I am absolutely horrified. Scores of people are dead and scores injured. Families, friends and the injured will be scarred for life. I just don't see banning all guns as a realistic or viable option.
You also get a 'gun culture' when guns are so readily available and cherished as they are in the US, which must also have an influence in the higher number of such incidents that happen in the US versus other nations.
There really isn't much that can be done about it for as long as guns remain so readily available, and perhaps more to the point for as long as America has a culture in which the gun is actually revered and cherished and owning a gun is seen as many as one of the most important "freedoms" a man can have.
As to this particular case, it is rather bizarre that two full hours passed between the first set of shootings and the second one. I wonder if there were two shooters...
The problem isn't so much with people having guns - as those unbalanced enough, bullied enough, fucked with enough - to go out and use them. Or the afformentioned "gun culture".
Both these things need preventing for this to end - if people are bullied and fucked with, they will seek revenge.
Sympathies with the victims and their families.
Give me one reason why a civilian would ever need to own a fully or semi-automatic rifle. Hunting rifle, fair enough. Automatic pistol, maybe. But not something where you can shoot up an entire school by the time the police get there.
Semi-automatic rifles, like shotguns and rifes are used a lot for hunting.
What has happened today is absolutely horrific but to call for a complete ban on gun ownership is unrealistic.
There are millions of law-abiding Americans that have been hunting for their entire lives. There are parts of America where hunting has been a way of life for generations. (This too is true in parts of Canada). This isn't going to change. An appalling act of mass murder isn't going to persuade the millions of ordinary Americans that own guns. (And have any of the 'ban guns in America' crowd ever thought about how you go about disarming millions of people and confiscating millions of firearms?)
Private possession of fully automatic rifles is pretty rare. But, I think even some friends of mine who live in Texas (and own guns and hunt) would agree with you, most people would, there isn't any justification for somebody being able to wonder into Wal-Mart and buy an AK-47.
Semi-automatic rifles are very popular for hunting, went out with some friends of mine in Texas and it seemed to be what most people there were using.
Yet they're all too keen to give up other freedoms in the name of 'security'.
The newest study I could find was from 1998 but the figures are pretty self-explanatory.
Gun Homicide (per 100,000)
Japan 0.03
Singapore 0.07
Taiwan 0.15
Kuwait 0.34
England/ Wales 0.07
Scotland 0.19
Netherlands 0.27
Spain 0.19
Ireland 0.30
Germany 0.21
Italy 1.16
Sweden 0.18
Denmark 0.23
Israel 0.72
New Zealand 0.22
Australia 0.56
Belgium 0.87
Canada 0.60
Norway 0.36
Austria 0.42
Northern Ireland 3.55
France 0.55
Switzerland 0.46
Finland 0.87
USA 6.24
From : Google Answers
At risk of sounding like that fat hypocrite Michael Moore, countries that don't have guns have, on the whole, much fewer gun-related deaths and crime than those that do. Simple fact. Oh well. As people have said, the gun lobby is way too strong in the US for that to ever change.
then why post it in P&D? Why not in Anything Goes?
Its current affairs. So it seemed more relevent.
I don't think Moore actually says that in Bowling for Columbine (tbh I suppose you could say his message is somewhat muddled). In the film, Moore goes to Canada - and accurately observes that much of Canada has very high gun ownership - like the USA. But, he also points out - that, as is shown in the stats that you posted gun crime in Canada is relatively low. Switzerland and Israel also have very high gun ownership and the carrying of concealed weapons is legal in both countries - yet gun crime is relatively low in both countries.
So you were making a political statement about a current going's on.
Ok, so it's not just the availability of guns that causes these gun crimes. What is it then? IF it because people get bullied then snap, how come the hard-done-by in other gun countries aren't mass murdering?
In itself it isn't. You only need to look at Switzerland.
I guess Israeli or Swiss society is very different to American society. Of course gun crime in many states (including some with high gun ownership) is not particularly high...but in America, in parts of some cities there are some areas with big problems. I'd be surprised if Zurich or Geneva have big gang problems...
But, gun crime in the form of shootings like that in Columbine and like that in Virginia today cannot be lumped in with inner city problems with gangs. And you ask the exact question - and I don't know. But, I'm pretty sure that even if illegal such psychopaths wouldn't be stopped. Guns are illegal in Britain - but if somebody really wanted to get hold of one to perpetrate mass murder they would find a way. Laws don't stop criminals and they don't stop someone hell-bent on causing carnage.
I'm not sure the US figures are that strange though. Other countries with high gun ownership (in the West) tend to have most of those weapons be held by either hunters or for military purposes (as in Switzerland). In the US, whilst guns are owned by hunters but their also owned by couples who's relationship is breaking down and by kids in inner cities areas. Funnily enough gang related violence and domestic violence is amongst the highest causes of death (not just in the US), not hunters arguing over who's going to bag that duck...
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita
Interestingly if you look at violent assaults the top 10 includes not just the US, but the UK, Canada and New Zealand. Which suggests that there's something ingrained in Anglo-Saxon/Celtic society about using violence (its not new all through the history of these Isles foreign observers have been remarking about how violent the British are and how suprising that we managed to produce a stable political culture from about 1688 onwards given our propensity for hitting each other).
The US has a high murder rate not because it's more violent than the UK, but because the gun is a pretty efficient killing tool. There's a reason why armies equip soldiers with rifles rather than baseball bats...
Which is why I said that on the whole the statistics support the view that no guns = fewer gun murders. I remember the Canada bit of the film well which proves that there are exceptions. Maybe it proves that Americans are too irresponsible to handle guns and as former colonial masters, we should step in and remove the guns so they can all play nice.
...didn't I see a South Park episode which ran a little something like that?
What I loved was the attention to detail. The 24 style phone ringtone was a touch of genius.
Well yes, many people use semi-automatic weapons, but do they need to? Now I'm no expert on hunting, but it seems to me that you get one shot, so a quick rate of fire is completely irrelevant. Watching that mobile phone video, the gunman appeared to get 30-odd shots off in quick succession without reloading (therefore, I'm guessing it was a semi-automatic). If he had a pistol, a shotgun, a hunting rifle, the death toll might've been far less, and he might not even had been confident that he'd be able to hold that many people hostage.
And incidentally, in Virginia, a man wouldn't even require a background check to get his hands on such a weapon.
Correct, but new laws in the state restrict his gun purchases to 12 a year!
(Now thats tough
Europeans just cant understand their need to carry guns.
:thumb:
Unless there were two separate gunmen that sounds like a major fuck up to me. I can't believe they let students go to their classrooms with a gunman on the loose.