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Euro kidding right UK?

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The EU isnt trying to convince you of anything. It's a reality and you must deal with it whether you like it or not. However, by remaining in the UK and slinging mud on the basis of misinformation does you no good in the credibility dept. So for your own sake I suggested you come find out the facts about what you so vehemently rail against. Might not hurt to get off your duff if you are so concerned with being accurate.

    But if laziness is your preference then why not visist one of the numerous Euro-info Centres dotted around the UK or go over to Queen Anne's Gate and visit the London offices of the Commission and EU Parliament? Or have a sit down with your MEP in the constituency office.

    The information sources are readily available, but you might have to actually get off the couch to investigate. lol.

    As for Strasbourg, don't think that there arent numerous opponents to that ridiculous waste of time and effort including myself. That's a political ghost of decades past that will hopefully be overturned. Nonetheless, that issue is far from central to the fact that the UK public is woefully misinformed about all areas of the EU in general. Blame that on a sensationalist and myopic tabloid press (which is clearly the most popular source of news and info in the UK opposite the more substantial but more selectively read Broadsheet press) and the government which has failed to facilitate many information campaigns attempted by the EU for people just like yourself.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Another example of extra laws the EU puts on its members was in the news today. A playground was shut down because it's swings were 2 inches too high.

    It's not that the regulation of swings isn't a good thing. But some things should be left on the local level. It's all big government on top of big government.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What a load of Euro-myth tripe. That ranks up their with claims that the EU was going to outlaw Blackpool Rock or that UK drivers were going to be forced to drive on the proper side of the road for a change. Utter exagerrated nonsense.

    Im surprised you will believe such ridiculous claims and yet the thought that Washington could ever be lying to the American public about its real motives for warmongering is "conspiracy theory". lol. How gullible the modern public has become indeed!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent







    bearing in mind that the EU would have us believe that there is nothing to lose for Euro membership and that businesses will only prosper...



    Kerching!

    And there, in a nutshell, is the crux of the situation. Membership reduces democracy. Certainly at an individual and national level. Whilst there may be strong economic arguments for a single market, there are very few for political integration.




    a) Not all businesses will prosper, some will do better and some worse, it is about the balance. Also how well an economy does is not the same thing as how well the economies companies do.

    b) I agree that EU institutions are not the best and the reform is needed to create true democracy but if the institutions were exactly the same as ours then surely we would have the same level of individual democracy.

    The loss of democracy at a national level I think is a good thing (though most will not agree) less self interest and more co-operation can only make the world better and is necessary in modern times when many problems are global in character and require co-operation between many countries/regions
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well spoken Toad!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent


    In the UK we elect 100% of the representatives of the Commons (don't get me started on the Lords). What % of the EU parliament do we elect?




    No, each individual has a role in electing about 0.17% of Parliament.

    I find that a convincing argument for Europe. You talk about acting in national self interest, but we vote only at a local level, govt acts at a far larger level than is possible to act in everyones best interests.

    This is how govt is and is no less true at the national level than at a European level.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Indeed. I think MoK is picking at gnats in order to maintain his opposition rahter than learn the real facts about how Europe is governed both nationally and at the EU level.

    Fact is MoK that depite Euro sceptic rhetoric, the Westminster and Whitehall aparatus of state is far more extensive and self-serving (and not necessarily in the interest of the general UK public) than Brussels is, by far.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Honestly, won't most countries in the EU still be trying to get the most resources for their citizens? Or pass the laws that give them the edge? I read companies are already playing the German worker off others when it comes to plant expansions versus moving.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Representatives will still try to do the best for those they represent but that is what happens in our democracies.

    The idea is that they come to an agreement that is the best for everyone or at least for the majority.......
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    The EU isnt trying to convince you of anything. It's a reality and you must deal with it whether you like it or not.

    Yes, the EU is reality. The Euro isn’t. Yet. The referendum on that, when it comes, is going to be about more than just the economics of monetary union. It’s going to descend into a free-for-all about the UK membership of the EU generally.

    Currently the UK contributes huge resources into the EU, and “like it or not” the EU needs us too. If you think that Europe has financial problems now, what would happen if one of the biggest partners withdraws?

    So, looking at that I have two things which I need convincing of, why should I vote for the Euro and why should the UK have political affiliation with Europe to such an extent?

    From the couch I’m sitting on it looks like the EU should be the one convincing me that they are a worthwhile institution.

    BTW One of the major reasons that you get so much anti-EU feeling over here is that in 1972 we were sold a bunch of bullshit. The referendum back then was to join the Common Market. A trading alliance.

    Now we have a Parliament, developing armed force capability, we are looking at a single currency etc.

    Hardly going to fill people with confidence, is it?
    But if laziness is your preference

    Bugger laziness, you arrogant arse, it’s about responsibility.

    The EU is supposed to represent me, it is supposed to be there to look after my[/I] interests. Therefore it is the EU’s responsibility to tell me what it is going to offer me. If it wants my taxes - my money - and my vote then it would help if it sold itself to me, wouldn’t you say? If it isn’t prepared to do even that…

    But, out of interest, I have sat down with my previous MEP.

    As for Strasbourg, don't think that there arent numerous opponents to that ridiculous waste of time and effort including myself. That's a political ghost of decades past that will hopefully be overturned. Nonetheless, that issue is far from central to the fact that the UK public is woefully misinformed about all areas of the EU in general

    Actually, it’s a perfect example of wasting money for no good reason and hardly does the EU’s case any good. Especially when, as you say, it is hopefully going to be changed. Not that it will, but that hopefully it will. Call me a cynic but shouldn’t a blatant and obvious waste of money be a high priority for change?

    The UK may be misinformed by some areas of the media, but when you have examples like that it’s hardly surprising that they will listen to that more, than they will the positive things.

    Out of interest, the BBC (that well known tabloid) reported on Tuesday about a proposed change to the EU definition of what constitutes an island. They claimed that two of the changes included that a landmass is not an island (in the EU’s eyes) if it a) contains the capital city of an EU member state b) is it connected to the mainland by a “rigid structure” c) if it is less that 1km from mainland – there were a couple of other restrictions. . Can you clarify this one for me?
    UK drivers were going to be forced to drive on the proper side of the road for a change

    We do. It’s everyone else who seems to have got things lopsided ;)
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    No, each individual has a role in electing about 0.17% of Parliament.

    As a population of 55m, we elect 100% of the members, which means that as an individual I have a larger voice in the affairs of state than I would if I was part of a county which elects less than 10% of the members…
    You talk about acting in national self interest, but we vote only at a local level, govt acts at a far larger level than is possible to act in everyone’s best interests.

    Which is precisely why I believe that we should have more decisions taken at a local level. Ultimately most of the things, which affect my daily life, are local issues. Central Government is becoming far too powerful, and if you move that centre further away from the population they will become more distant and less focussed on what they are really there for.

    Take a look around this country now. North/South divide?

    Imagine that on a national level.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BTW One of the major reasons that you get so much anti-EU feeling over here is that in 1972 we were sold a bunch of bullshit. The referendum back then was to join the Common Market. A trading alliance.

    Now we have a Parliament, developing armed force capability, we are looking at a single currency etc.

    Hardly going to fill people with confidence, is it?

    But the EU ALWAYS WAS a supranational organisation. Why don't people realise that?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by monocrat
    But the EU ALWAYS WAS a supranational organisation. Why don't people realise that?

    I do, but then it wasn't me who was sold a pack of lies back in 1972 - as I was only 2 at the time...

    back then the issue was about trade. Yet look at the mammouth organisation it has become, and look at the influence it now has.

    Now we are told that a federal state isn't the plan. Do you wonder why people don't believe that?

    It is interesting though that in this discussion there is no suggestion that this will enhance democracy...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It won't enhance democracy...not on the local level. In fact, it pushes an agenda and just adds layers of useless laws.

    Blair said economically it is necessary for Britain. That I don't know. But the autonomy to make your own decisions will be gone. The EC reminds me of the UN...inaction...tons of yapping.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    The EC reminds me of the UN...inaction...tons of yapping.

    Indeed. Except I don't get to vote for my UN Ambassador...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so tell me pnj, since our own country is a federal system. How little power do our states have?

    I think you need to go have a second look at all these nonsense claims you are making. You sound like Norman Tebbit! lol.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    so tell me pnj, since our own country is a federal system. How little power do our states have?

    and how many of your countrymen rally against central govt interferrence...

    and how aften are they referred to as "little Californians" [or insert alternative State here]...

    ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Actually MoK, the point being that within the EU framework, the division between what is the domain of member states' sovereign decisionmaking and what is jointly dealt with at the European level has been spelled out.

    Go look up whatever you can find about the prinicple of subsidiarity.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Point is Clandestine, that I don't think that Europe should be making any decision about what happens within my borders.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Point is MoK that such is the reality of the international system we live in. No state has absolute autonomy in a global market economy. And its not only EU decisions affecting what goes on inside your borders or anyone's borders. Sorry to burst the bubble.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Clandestine
    No state has absolute autonomy in a global market economy.

    Actually we do. If we chose to. It would be folly (as the Chinese have discovered), but not impossible.
    And its not only EU decisions affecting what goes on inside your borders or anyone's borders. Sorry to burst the bubble.

    Sorry to burst yours, but in no other situation can a group of foreign states legislate on what happens within another country's borders.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think youll find many parallels (to greater or lesser degrees) in other multinational blocks such as NAFTA or ASEAN.
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