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Comments
Has he said anything that's not true?
Completely disregarding the many and varied complex reasons why a woman may choose to wear it.
There's no way I'd be happy seeing a doctor wearing a full veil. And, working weekends on the cig counter in a shop I wouldn't serve someone wearing a motorcycle helmet - and I wouldn't be comfortable serving someone covering their face in cloth.
Actually, it is. If everybody covered their entire face with cloth the world would be an awful place.
Free speech is stupid...Yawn.
Why isn't it okay? Would it be okay to ask someone to remove a balaclava in a restaurant?
If they're not he should (and has said he would...) still speak to them. Although their identity should imo still be properly confirmed with additional security checks if that's the case. It wouldn't be difficult for a terrorist to disguise themselves by covering their face...
Certainly are many reasons why they wear it but the recent rise is closer to what he's saying.
I would actually agree with you to some extent...which is rare.
And how the fuck do you know why they wear them? Do you have numerous Muslim veil wearing friends? It's all speculation at the moment but don't you think it's a bit weird that since there's been a hounding of Muslims in the media and elsewhere that all these veil wearing women spring up?
Are you blind? Please someone take this silly girl to an optician.
i dont like seeing 12 year old girls wearing mini skirts and boob tubes, if i can put up with that horror, people here can put up with veils
other than in formal situations to confirm whom it is ie court, people can cover up what the hell they want or show as much as they want EVEN if i dont like it myself
my personal viewpoint on the full face coverage is that it's a bit pointless in regards to modesty, as you lose a lot of what someone is saying at their benefit of very little especially if everywhere else is loosely covered up
Just because she's right isn't a reason to insult her - she's saying you can't be certain why, your saying you know why.
Hence you're the one making generalistions, I'd advise you to think before insulting people here just for pointing out what you're doing.
It is not prescriptive, if it was then you would see it much much more.
Okay, I am starting to get pissed off now because the words which I am using, and which Jack Straw used, are being interpreted rather than read of "face value".
There is no "made to dress" issue here. Jack Starw has suggested that he asks women to remove their veil and doesn't refuse to speak with them if they don't. They are offered a choice, one which makes him feel more comfortable but he know that they may not - he gives them the choice noting that he is willing to feel uncomfortable if they object to his request. I really fail to see what the issue is there.
You also still haven't explained why the women's "right" to wear a veil is more important that jack Straws "right" to ask them to remove it.
You're right, it isn't essential. It helps, which was jack's point.
It also isn't essential for the veil to be worn.
Why? Why is the right to free speech less important than the right to wear an item of clothing.
Yes it does. You might disagree, you might argue a point but fundamentally you should be prepared to defend someone's right to a different opinion. The minute you want to restrict someone else's right to express an opinion you have lst any moral high ground.
That isn't what I said at all.
They have a perfectly valid right to wear whatever they want. Jack Straw has a perfectly valid right to ask them to remove it, because it makes him feel uncomfortable.
What my issue is how the Muslim community is now justifying the tensions of the last ten years with the argument that they are "excluded". I find it a bit rich for a Muslim community which dresses with the sole intention of being seen to be different then whingeing because people see them as different. This Government bends over backwards to accomodate their style of dress, yet this is seen as insufficient. If I wore a hooded top over my face and refused to lower it I would be ejected from a bank PDQ, but the same courtesy is not extended to someone wearing the jilbab. I fail to see the difference between a hooded top and a jilbab- both are garments worn for cultural reasons.
I also refer you to MoK's questions- why shouldn't Jack Straw ask someone to desist from doing something that makes him uncomfortable? The woman doesn't have to agree, but oddly enough most do. Why should the "right" to wear the jilbab be enshrined above my "right" to see who it is that I am talking to? There isn't anything wrong with a man asking if a woman will raise their skirt for him, either, but I expect 99% of women will say no.
Personally I think the Burqua and the Niqab* are medieval and any religion which makes you wear it is wrong. That's not to say that the state should intervene and ban them, anymore than the state should force the CofE to accept gay priest. But we as individuals should be quite at liberty to say its wrong and that there are more tolerant, modern forms of Islam who don't feel the need to cover women almost completely.
* though the Hijab can be quite nice. there's a girl who works near me who wears one and I think it frames her face quite nicely and adds to her attractiveness.
I think a lot of people see it as oppressive towards women, but maybe we should stop and ask if it is what the women who wear the veil really want? Perhaps to them they are dignified and want to wear it out of respect to their religion, just like some western women want a white wedding and to be a housewife.
If Jack Straw feels uncomfortable talking to a woman in a veil then maybe he shouldn't be working in a multi-cultural society. Working with people from different faiths and ethnic groups you need to be secure around something that you perceive is different...
I know this is a wierd question, but what do Muslim women who choose to wear the full veil do at airports? I mean when they check passports?
Anyway... Back on the debate, personally it doesn't bother me what people wear. I'm not an expert on Islam but I fail to see how women wearing a full veil is hurting anybody. Sure, they look unusual and we're not used to it, but maybe we should try to understand it and maybe that education should start in school.
everyone has the right to say what they feel but if their actions infringes on someone else, i don't think that's right
Erm... don't the women involved have a problem with being uncovered?
NQA had it spot on when he talked about a clash of liberties.
Again, why? Why does someone's right to express their religion come before someone else's right to express an opinion - isn't religious expression just another form of free speech?
How do words infringe on someone else's rights?
*emphasis mine.
I think that you are be disingenuous there. Some may do it for effect, some in the belief that it supports their religious expression. I know of at least one person who started wearing a veil after the 11/9 attacks because they felt a sense of pride in their religion which was being undermine by the attackers and wanted to show that not all muslims are terrorists.
Point is, that to suggest that people wear it for the effect on others is misleading. I'm sure that you will find that in the vast majority of cases you statement is untrue.
Doesn't stop me looking for the other 1%
Over the next year, you'll be hearing a lot about my classes
:banghead: again.
Look at the words used, then point out where he doesn't "let them keep their veil on"
Because they would have their face covered and therefore he would feel uncomfortable. By the same token removing the veil could make the woman feel uncomfortable.
The only way to deal with the situation and keep both parties "happy" is for the contact to be through a third party whose face is uncovered.