FAO those who think Israel's actions have been justified & proportioned

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't want this discussion to continue further so go away please!

    I don't give a damn what you want and I won't go away.

    Seems your true colours have finally been exposed, eh?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't give a damn what you want and I won't go away.

    Seems your true colours have finally been exposed, eh?

    Fuck off you silly wee cunt.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Stop wanking over each other and get the discussion going so this thread isn't closed please.

    *sigh*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, the ceasefire is supposed to start at 7am local time Monday morning.
    Few problems here.
    Hezbollah said they will not action the ceasefire until the Israeli army is oout of Lebanon. That can take a while. So are they gonna fight them as they are retreating?
    The Lebanese army supported by the UN is supposed to take over the South of Lebanon and control the area (hehe, like hell that is gonna work).
    Are Hezbollah gonna abide by the orders of the Lebanese government and army?
    (Like hell)

    Yesterday Israel dropped loads of leaflets onto Beirut asking everyone there why Hezbollah were making incursions into Israel and why are they using the civilians as human shields. This psychological warfare has sparked loads of arguments on the streets of Beirut between the muslims and the christians....
    Doesn't look good.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sure christians and muslims will be in full agreement as to who have been the murdering cunts in this conflict, leaflets or not leaflets.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    I'm sure christians and muslims will be in full agreement as to who have been the murdering cunts in this conflict, leaflets or not leaflets.

    That is the thing, they are not.
    I was watching a TV report by the Portuguese TV station last night and they have interviewed people about the leaflets. A lot of people were visibly angry. They've also showed footage of fights on the streets with muslims and christians arguing about the war. This one muslim woman, for instance, was having a go at this christian guy accusing him of supporting Israel...

    I think a lot of them remember still very clearly what happened after '82 and are very much weary of it.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Fucking Israelis.

    I don't blame Hezbollah for not stopping until Israel is gone - many, many Lebonese have lost thier lives. And I bet Israel won't leave without killing a few more.

    They should stop though, and give them a chance to leave. But I can understand why they won't - and won't trust Israel after it's actions during other ceasefires.

    And like the Lebonese Army stands a chance of doing ANYTHING.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't blame Hezbollah for not stopping until Israel is gone - many, many Lebonese have lost thier lives. And I bet Israel won't leave without killing a few more.

    :confused: :confused: So you wouldn't criticise an Islamist-inspired purge of Jewry from the Middle East?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    :confused: :confused: So you wouldn't criticise an Islamist-inspired purge of Jewry from the Middle East?

    WHAT?

    So - if another Country - say France - invaded the UK - You would say "Don't resist the French, thats Zenophobic!" - I fail to see how Hezbollah attacking Israel because Israel invaded the Lebanon is somehow purging Jews from the Mid East... I also said I think personally both sides should stop firing and Israel should be allowed to withdraw peacefully WITHOUT killing anyone - just for a change. And Hezbollah should too.

    But we know this isn't going to happen. Both sides want blood. And Israel has been the biggest slaughterer sofar.

    And come on... how am I not criticising a purge of Jewry from the Mid-East? I don't blame Hezbollah for retaliating to an ace of aggression?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    I fail to see how Hezbollah attacking Israel because Israel invaded the Lebanon is somehow purging Jews from the Mid East...

    Er Hezbollah attacked Israel by invading Israeli territory and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers. Further, a barrage of missiles fired from Lebanese territory by Hezbollah deep into Israel precipitated a war. Iran through Hezbollah initiated war with Israel and Israel has been exercising her right to self-defence.
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    And come on... how am I not criticising a purge of Jewry from the Mid-East? I don't blame Hezbollah for retaliating to an ace of aggression?

    Except Hezbollah is the aggressor. (And supporters and sympathisers of Hezbollah should remember that Hezbollah is indeed committed to the total destruction of the State of Israel and the annihilation of Jews in the Middle East...not that friends of Hezbollah like George Galloway would care. Although I don't suppose it is surprising that somebody who supported an evil tyrant like Saddam also cosies up to terrorists).

    I can't really see how any civilised person can possibly defend backward Islamofascists like Hezbollah.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Er Hezbollah attacked Israel by invading Israeli territory and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers.
    No, it has already been shown they were in the Lebanon when "kidnapped".
    Further, a barrage of missiles fired from Lebanese territory by Hezbollah deep into Israel precipitated a war. Iran through Hezbollah initiated war with Israel and Israel has been exercising her right to self-defence.
    :lol: Yes. And the Israeli's didn't at all fire any missiles or drop any bombs onto civilian ares of the Lebanon.
    Except Hezbollah is the aggressor. (And supporters and sympathisers of Hezbollah should remember that Hezbollah is indeed committed to the total destruction of the State of Israel and the annihilation of Jews in the Middle East...not that friends of Hezbollah like George Galloway would care. Although I don't suppose it is surprising that somebody who supported an evil tyrant like Saddam also cosies up to terrorists).

    I can't really see how any civilised person can possibly defend backward Islamofascists like Hezbollah.
    Galloway is a tit. And as for Saddam... the bloke was betrayed by those who put him in power... gosh, it was the Right Wing governments in the west who put him there, to control Mid Eastern terrorism in the area. Which he did VERY well indeed - no fucking insurgents under his rule!

    I don't see how any civilised person can support the mass slaughter Israel has been carrying out. Of civilians. For the past 40 years or so!

    I am in no way defending Hezbollah or thier murders. I agree with no conflict that has no reason, such as this one. However, whilst both sides are wrong, one is wrong on a huge scale compared to the other. One has murdered so many civilians it should have its government tried for war crimes.

    I can understand why Hezbollah was created and fights now. The attrocities against the Lebanon are huge. Someone had to take up a fight when the rest of the world lets civilians get slaughtered - sadly those who took it up were extremist Islamics. (Islamofascists is such a nonsense word that makes no sense - please stop using it. It's like saying Commuchristians.)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    No, it has already been shown they were in the Lebanon when "kidnapped".
    By whatreallyhappened.com - way to go bro', showing that high intelligence of yours :)
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    By whatreallyhappened.com - way to go bro', showing that high intelligence of yours :)

    Indeed, they printed that. They'd print anything though.

    What was actually reported was originally a "clash on the border". It wasn't until later that it became Hezbollah encroaching into Israeli territory. I think the words "clash on the border" speak for themselves. Some Israeli units probed Lebanese territory and got a reaction.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Indeed, they printed that. They'd print anything though.

    What was actually reported was originally a "clash on the border". It wasn't until later that it became Hezbollah encroaching into Israeli territory. I think the words "clash on the border" speak for themselves. Some Israeli units probed Lebanese territory and got a reaction.

    Well unless they were standing with one foot in Israel and one foot in Lebanon it wasn't literally a clash on the border, but on one side or the other of it. At the moment the only people who know for sure are Israel and Hezbollah, and funnily enough they are claiming opposite things.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    By whatreallyhappened.com - way to go bro', showing that high intelligence of yours :)

    And there only evidence seems to be some newspaper clippings and I'm not sure why they are more believable than the clippings which say it happened in Israel.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yeah that puts a slightly different spin on it, you can't really call it kidnapping if they were caught trespassing can you........you can bet if a couple of lebanese soldiers had been caught in israeli territory and hauled off we would all be saying how it was their stupid fault in the first place........so how does this give israel the excuse to massacre thousands of civilians......? and what gives the US the right to supply the weapons to do that? oh sorry i forgot, they're helping fight the war on TERROR of course........the media is just as much to blame for obscuring the facts, it's no wonder people like dis and luke don't realise how stupid they look when they stand there and say 'it's sad what's happening to lebanon but i believe israel has a right to defend itself'.........it's not defense you muppets, it's a fucking disgrace, at this rate one might even call it genocide.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    And even if they WERE taken in Israel - why is the whole armed forces needed for a Hostage rescue mission anyway?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    And even if they WERE taken in Israel - why is the whole armed forces needed for a Hostage rescue mission anyway?

    I thought it was just an act, but you truly don't get it, do you?

    It's about the bigger picture. It's about Israel leaving southern Lebanon 6 years ago, and still facing hostility and attacks, and as it was seen the kidnapping of two soldier at a very sensitive time when the Israeli community were already distraught by the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It was the straw that broke the camels back - and frankly, I don't blame Israel one bit for wanting to defend themself. They say it's about land, but clearly when Israel has gone and given that land the attacks still haven't stopped.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    I thought it was just an act, but you truly don't get it, do you?

    It's about the bigger picture. It's about Israel leaving southern Lebanon 6 years ago, and still facing hostility and attacks, and as it was seen the kidnapping of two soldier at a very sensitive time when the Israeli community were already distraught by the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It was the straw that broke the camels back - and frankly, I don't blame Israel one bit for wanting to defend themself. They say it's about land, but clearly when Israel has gone and given that land the attacks still haven't stopped.

    Bet they wouldn't have done it if Syria was still protecting Lebanon to be fair.

    Israel has faced attacks for YEARS. And if it WAS about the continuing attacks, why does Israel say they are there trying to get soldiers?

    At least have the deceny to be honest about it. Not only that - war is proven method not to combat terrorism, but to make it worse.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Er Hezbollah attacked Israel by invading Israeli territory and kidnapping two Israeli soldiers. Further, a barrage of missiles fired from Lebanese territory by Hezbollah deep into Israel precipitated a war. Iran through Hezbollah initiated war with Israel and Israel has been exercising her right to self-defence.



    Except Hezbollah is the aggressor. (And supporters and sympathisers of Hezbollah should remember that Hezbollah is indeed committed to the total destruction of the State of Israel and the annihilation of Jews in the Middle East...not that friends of Hezbollah like George Galloway would care. Although I don't suppose it is surprising that somebody who supported an evil tyrant like Saddam also cosies up to terrorists).

    I can't really see how any civilised person can possibly defend backward Islamofascists like Hezbollah.

    Now you know perfectly well that's not strictly true. Come on dis, you're normally a bit more intelligent than this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dear Wendy wrote:
    I thought it was just an act, but you truly don't get it, do you?

    It's about the bigger picture. It's about Israel leaving southern Lebanon 6 years ago, and still facing hostility and attacks, and as it was seen the kidnapping of two soldier at a very sensitive time when the Israeli community were already distraught by the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit. It was the straw that broke the camels back - and frankly, I don't blame Israel one bit for wanting to defend themself. They say it's about land, but clearly when Israel has gone and given that land the attacks still haven't stopped.

    Its about Israel leaving Lebanon but still overflying their airspace, holding onto prisoners for years and years, its about Israel holding onto territory they shouldn't. Come on, please be a little more honest about Israel's role in all this.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's about Israeli forces NOT having in fact left Lebanon, actually. Moreover, it is about the IDF still routinely abducting civilians and holding them without charge in Israel (some 9000 Lebanese/Palestinians to a mere handful taken by those "nasty arab" types); and lets us again remind readers that Hezbollah did not commence rocket fire until AFTER Olmert and his ethnocidal cohorts began the illegal purposed bombings of civilian population centers and infrastructure. All of what we are now seeing is part of a pre-planned and consistently ongoing Israeli objective to extend its geographical domination incrementally under whatever convenient pretext it can manufacture.

    The War Crimes apologists continue to spout IDF-censored lies and propaganda and demonstrate their support for the very practices according to which the Nazis were deemed guilty.

    Oh and NQA, do not pretend that you have ever given anything other than "newspaper clippings" for support of any contention you have made on these forums. Just keep denying and reinventing the reality of Israeli ideological evil along with Jacq and Dis, even though you - being the older party of the three -should know better.

    More from Jonathan Cook on the true face of Israeli institutionalised racist, ethnocidal aggressivism and propaganda...
    A psychologist tells me how upset she is about a meeting she attended a few days ago of the northern coordinating committee of her profession. They were discussing how best to treat the shock and trauma suffered by Israeli children under the bombardment from Hizbullah. The meeting concluded with an agreement that the psychologists would reassure the children with the statement: "The army is there to protect us."



    And so, the seeds of fascism are unthinkingly sown for another generation of children, children like our own.



    No one agreed with my friend when she dissented, arguing that this was not the message to be telling impressionable minds, and that violence against the Other is not a panacea for our problems. Parents, not soldiers, are responsible for protecting their children, she pointed out. Tanks, planes and guns bring only fear and more hatred, hatred that will one day return to haunt us.



    The slow, gentle indoctrination continues day in, day out, reinforcing the idea among Israel's Jewish population that the army can do no wrong and that it needs no oversight, not even from politicians (most of whom are former generals anyway, or like the prime minister Ehud Olmert too frightened to stand up to the chiefs of staff if they wanted to). "We will win". How do we know we will win? Because "the army is there to protect us." Add into the mix that faceless "Arab" enemy, those sub-beings, and you have a recipe for fascism -- even if it is of the democratically elected variety.



    The Israeli media, of course, are the key to providing the second half of that equation -- or rather not providing it. You can sit watching the main Israeli channels all day, flicking between channels 1, 2 and 10, and not see a Lebanese face, apart from that of Hassan Nasrallah, the new Hitler. I don't mean the charred faces of corpses, or the bandaged babies, or the amputees lying in hospital beds. I mean any Lebanese faces. Just as you almost never see a Palestinian face on Israeli TV unless they are the mob, disfigured with hatred as they hold aloft another martyr on his way to burial.



    Lebanon only swings in to view on Israeli television through the black and white footage of an aerial gun sight, or through the long shot of a distant urban landscape seconds before it is "pulverized" by a dropped bomb. The buildings crumble, flames shoot up, clouds of dust billow into the air. Another shot of arcade-game adrenalin.



    The humanitarian stories exist but they do not concern Lebanon. Animal welfare societies plead on behalf of the dogs and cats left alone to face the rocket fire on deserted Kiryat Shemona, just as they did before for foxes and deer when Israel began building its mammoth walls of concrete and steel across their migration routes in the West Bank, walls that are also imprisoning, unseen, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.



    The rest of the coverage is dedicated to Israeli army spokespeople, including the national heartthrob Miri Regev, and media "commentators" and "analysts". Who are these people? They are from the same pool of former military intelligence and security service officers who once did this job in the closed rooms of army HQ but now wallow in the limelight. One favored pundit is even subtitled "Expert on psychological warfare against Hassan Nasrallah".



    And who are the presenters and anchors who interview them? The other day an ageing expert on Apache helicopters interrupted his interviewer irritatedly to tell him his question was stupid. "We were in the army together and both know the answer. Don't play dumb?" It was a rare reminder that these anchors too are just soldiers in suits. One of the most popular, Ehud Yaari of Channel 2, barely conceals his military credentials as he condones yet more violence against the Lebanese or, if he can be deflected for a moment, the people of Gaza.



    That is what comes of having a "citizen army", where teenagers learn to use a gun before they can drive and men do reserve duty until their late 40s. It means every male teacher, professor, psychologist and journalist thinks as a soldier because that is what he has been for most of his life.



    Israel is not unique, far from it, though it is in a darker place, and has been for some time, than "we" in the West can fully appreciate. It is a mirror of what our own societies are capable of, despite our democratic values. It shows how a cult of victimhood makes one heartless and cruel, and how racism can be repackaged as civilised values.



    Maybe those UN monitors, with their lookout post above the battlefield where Israel wants to use any means it can to destroy Hizbullah and Lebanese civilians who get in the way, had to be removed simply because they are a nuisance, a restraint when Israel needs to get on with the job of asserting "our" values. Maybe Israel does not want the scrutiny of peacekeepers as it fights our war on terror for us. Maybe it feared that the monitors' reports might help to give back to the Lebanese, even to Hizbullah, their faces, their history, their suffering.



    And, if we are honest, Israel is not alone. How many of us want the Arabs to remain faceless so we can keep believing we are the victims of a new ideology that wants only our evisceration, just as the "Red Indians" once supposedly wanted our scalps? How many of us believe that our values demand that we fall in behind a new world order in which Arab deaths are not real deaths because "they" are not fully human?

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well what a surprise...
    The US government was closely involved in planning the Israeli campaign in Lebanon, even before Hizbullah seized two Israeli soldiers in a cross border raids in July. American and Israeli officials met in the spring, discussing plans on how to tackle Hizbullah, according to a report published yesterday.
    The veteran investigative journalist Seymour Hersh writes in the current issue of the New Yorker magazine that Israeli government officials travelled to the US in May to share plans for attacking Hizbullah.

    Quoting a US government consultant, Hersh said: "Earlier this summer ... several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, 'to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear'."

    The Israeli action, current and former government officials told Hersh, chimed with the Bush administration's desire to reduce the threat of possible Hizbullah retaliation against Israel should the US launch a military strike against Iran.
    "A successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign ... could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations," sources told Hersh.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1844021,00.html

    What a bunch of utter cunts, the lot of them... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    What a bunch of utter cunts, the lot of them... :rolleyes:

    The exact words I'd used to describe Hezbollah and the appeasement brigade.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Who is this "appeasement brigade" you speak of?

    Are you referring to those who condemn Israel murdering civilians and bombing Lebanon to fuck?

    Do tell. Because if that's the case you'd be including millions of people in this country alone, including many board members.

    I don't remember anyone here calling you an utter cunt for your support of Israel. Perhaps you should think of extending the same courtesy to others- if that is you were meaning by "appeasement brigade".
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dis is an appeaser of war criminals and criminals against humanity and too dense and ideologically duplicitous to comprehend that simple fact.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Who is this "appeasement brigade" you speak of?

    The UN, the EU..nah, I'd say those in general who do not recognise the danger that Hezbollah and its Iranian sponsors pose to much of the Middle East and the wider international community. Although I actually wouldn't use that term, I'd rather call them misguided.
    Aladdin wrote:
    Are you referring to those who condemn Israel murdering civilians and bombing Lebanon to fuck?

    Since you are so fond of trying to understand the motivation of terrorists it's surprising that you never attempt to consider the rationale of the Israelis recent actions. The Israelis didn't go back to Lebanon for the hell of it, Israel was provoked into a war. The international community failed to fulfil its promise of disarming Hezbollah, recent events are the cost of that failure.

    If Hezbollah can be effectively and permanently disarmed and Lebanese sovereignty over the entire country reasserted the Lebanese and Israeli people will get the security and stability they deserve. The Islamist Hamas and Hezbollah are the obstacles to progress in the region. If mutual recognition and secure borders follows the emergence of a Palestinian state and Hezbollah is overcome in Lebanon, people in all three countries will be so much better off and the region will truly prosper. One day hopefully.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Dis is an appeaser of war criminals and criminals against humanity and too dense and ideologically duplicitous to comprehend that simple fact.

    Now you've denounced him, again, any chance that you can answer previously avoided questions about your own stance on murdering civillians?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Since you are so fond of trying to understand the motivation of terrorists it's surprising that you never attempt to consider the rationale of the Israelis recent actions. The Israelis didn't go back to Lebanon for the hell of it, Israel was provoked into a war.
    And you really believe that, do you?

    Israel was planning to invade Lebanon well before the soldiers were kidnapped.

    Not that kidnapping two soldiers merits bombing cities hundreds of miles away from the incident and murdering many hundreds of innocent civilians.

    Civilised nations simply don't do that.

    If you say Israel has as much right to bomb Beirut as Hezbollah of bombing Haifa, fair enough. So long as we're clear that they're both as murderous and terrorists as each other...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,328 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive answered your questions already MoK. Obviously youve continued to read nothing by way of actual details of the Hezbollah response and what they were targetting as opposed to the Israelis.

    Then again, your refusal to read more than the mainstream press - whitewashing the realities of Israel's sole guilt in this pre-planned transnational war crime - makes your adamant villification of rightful Lebanese resistance (ala Hezbollah) no less surprising than any posts made by our other resident Israeli state propaganda regurgitators.

    When you've bothered to inform yourself on the actual Israeli pre-planning for this invasion and rampant destruction of Lebanon long before any misnamed "kidnapping" (read: legitimate capture of IDF soldiers on Lebanese soil) pretext was available to them, and well before any Hezbollah rockets were ever fired (again, only AFTER Israel launched its aggressions on Lebanese civilian population centres in direct contravention of the Nuremberg Charter), then perhaps you might get a glimmer of understanding of whom is entirely guilty not only of this latest demonstration of disproportionate savagery, but of generations of grasping expansionist intent.

    Until then, don't waste my time or yours asking questions to which you've already had your answer, whether you like it or not.
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