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Save for the fact which has already been debunked that "they" (i.e. Hezbollah) did not "go in" anywhere, the units destroyed and soldiers captured were on Lebanese soil, contrary to Israeli state/IDF lies. Thus Hezbollah was rightfully acting against the ongoing military operations of transnational aggression which did not end with the oft touted "withdrawal" from Southern Lebanon in 2000.
Do you condemn the killing of Israeli civillians?
I ask again in this thread because you failed to answer previously.
A pretty big generalisation. :rolleyes: And I don't think whether somebody is Jewish or not is particularly relevant, I'm puzzled as to why anybody would think it is. Many of Israel's biggest critics are Jewish (and often Israeli) and there are supporters of Israel who are Christian, Jewish, atheist and some even who are Muslim. And the implication that because somebody is Jewish they are automatically biased is as untrue as it is offensive. You really are a twat sometimes.
I've explained my views on the present situation numerously. I am not comfortable with current events but nonetheless Israel is right to fight the Hezbollah aggressors that initiated hostilities. I continue to hope for a conclusion whereby Israel's borders are secure, Hezbollah is disarmed and Lebanon has control within its borders; anything less will result in future instability and most likely a repeat of current events in the near future. A lasting peace will only come following total victory.
Come on now, of course there'll be exceptions on both sides but the vast majority of Jews will be behind Israel in this situation.
And MoK, I do detest innocents killed on all sides, but as Al has rightly and repeated pointed out, one sides is as astronomically out of proportion to the other in deliberate indiscriminate targetting of civilians as it is protracted. That ethnocide of the indigenous peoples of the land and region is fundamental to the Zionist ideology in its colonialist expansionist "manifest destiny" mentality (aka the kindred principle to Lebensraum), Israel is the one which as a state stands worthy of the greater condemnation for its repeatedly disregard of international law and countless crimes against humanity.
Those who have been brutalised have the basic morally justified right to fight back by all means possible against their tyrannical opressors, else we might as well call the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto terrorists as did the Nazi media of that era in order to justify its wanton slaughter and destruction.
The consistency of principle is as clear as day to any who have the intellectual honesty to open their eyes.
That might be true but I do not think that justifies the assumption that a columnist who happens to be Jewish is automatically 'biased.'
Anyhow I generally agree with the line taken by the US government to recent events. I'm growing ever more impressed by the excellent Condoleeza Rice and I really hope she runs in '08 for the presidency.
When GWB got re-elected 2 years ago I said I will not go to the US while he is the president. If she runs, which she won't, and wins, which she won't, then I will never again set foot on american soil, I swear. And that is saying something, coz I love America.
Excellent my ass, "what did Kofi Annan say today about her, something about her knowledge of the Middle East..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5255966.stm
Twisted sick cunts :mad:
Yet they're still allowed to get away with it. As I said before nothing is going to change with good old fucking Uncle Sam providing Israel with the bombs to do this. I thought the USA was against other countries commiting war crimes. or is that only for those funny looking people with brown skin. :chin:
Bastards.
That's a fucking disgrace. WHY are they allowed to get away with this? WHY?
And why the HELL isn't the UN doing something when it's people are being deliberatley targeted? The UN has the power to take action against Israel, both dimplomatically and militarily.
Someone needs to stop them.
UN stands for UNable.
UN stands for UNfit.
UN stands for UNimpressive.
If they pass a resolution soon, they can't get troops on the ground for a month at least, and that'll be a couple of thousand, which is not enough. They will need at least 20,000 troops. And not the bullet magnet armoured vehicles they have but proper heavy artillery. And Patriot missile defence or Rapier whatever. And for all this to happen the US need to control Israel in the way the UN want them to.
None if this will happen any time in the future. Israel will end up occupying the whole of Lebanon as"US in Iraq" style, and lots of IDF soldiers will die killed by Guerillas from Hezbollah and possibly Lebanese people.
After about a month, Iran won't like this, which means that Syria won't like it, so Syria will mobilise their army and start bombing tel aviv, then Iran will get involved by doing the same, an aerial battle will occur, Israel will be pushed in the corner and release a few nukes around the area basically wiping out the middle east as we know it.
The nuclear fallout will be spread west into Egypt and Turkey and possibly reaching south east europe. It will spread east into India and Pakistan...
Refugees will overflood Europe and the international community will be unable to cope. Anarchy will ensue. Russia will close off it's borders and so will the US and UK. The EU will throw barrages of accusations at the US over the whole Israel thing which will upset Bush and he will cut Europe off apart from the UK which in turn will seggregate the UK from Europe and it will be Russia vs EU vs US&UK. Meanwhile, the Chinese are laughing, and they decide to invade Japan and Taiwan and indeed the 2 Koreas.
in the whole mess, everyone forgets about Africa.
Cold War no2 starts.
New world order forms.
Possible?
When was the last time Israel observed a UN resolution or gave a shit about international law?
LOL! :rolleyes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4775689.stm
Israeli government wants more war shocker! I wonder how long they've been waiting for an 'excuse' to invade Lebanon. I wonder how long they will be left to illegally occupy even more land.
Becaues the US (and UK) both hold a veto on the UN security council and can block any rulings put forward.
Secondly the Lebaneese aren' that excited by what the UN is currently proposing - effectively that Israel will be allowed to occuply southern lebanon until a suitable UN peace keeping force is established (this force will not include UK soliders in anthing other than advisory roles as we are already overstreached - i'm not sure about the US but I'm betting they are probably pretty overstreached as well.)
If that happens i think that Africa may well be the safest place to be.
Already there?
But that isn't what I asked, is it?
So, does that include killing civillians?
Nice sidetrack, missing a major point. They didn't target civillians.
Yet you show no consistency because you soundly condemn the Israeli Govt for targetting civillians and yet seem to act as an apologist for Hamas and Hezbollah - in the full knowledge of who bankrolls them (i.e. nation states).
Is that an admission that you are not "intellectually honest" or an example of double standards? Worst still, does it actually prove the lie to your claim of being anti-Zionist?
They've done well!
TRYING to help people in Lebanon. Airstrikes and artillery don't help much.
You asked if I condemn the killing of innocents, I answered. you want to play silly buggers, your problem, not mine.
If you bothered to actually research the subject or even bother reading the references I posted earlier, you'd discover that the oft touted mainstream claim that Hezbollah and Hamas deliberately target civilians is actually a long contrivance of Israeli state and military filtered media PR, duly disseminated without an ounce of investigative verification by mainstream corporate collusionist media (BBC included). You might try reading HRW's own analysis on the subject which indicates no solid proof that Hezbollah has ever intentional targetted civilians.
What you persist in refusing to acknowledge is that this has ever been a conflict initiated and perpetuated by Zionist colonialist/expanisionist militant ideological intent and ever characterised by completely anti-Arab myth to the Western public by the Israeli state and its corporate media cohorts. Whether you wish to wake up and smell the lies or not, this has been the underlying reality for more than half a century.
They were villified according to exactly the same principle for daring to fight back against the institutionalised tyranny and expansionistic ethnocidal agenda of prevailing Nazi-state. Given the number of times the notion of principle has to be emphasized in response to you, it appears you do not really comprehend the concept.
That said, neither has Hamas/Hezbollah, but Israel/the IDF has and does by clearly empirically verifiable fact.
Condemnation of Israel is entirely consistent in principle with both international law and sound moral precepts. Israel has been the one to consistently disregard every UN resolution ever drafted against its atrocities, Israel is the one which has confiscated ever increasing portions of land to which it has no legal right, Israel is the one which has exercised Naziistic collective punishments and mass abductions of women and children, Israel is the one which has invaded not once but now again the sovereign territory of its neighbours, Israel is the one which has flagrantly abrogated the clear dictates of the Nuremberg Principles (I suggest strongly you actually read them for a change), et al.
What matter who bankrolls Hamas/Hezbollah? Why should Iran/Syria be deemed evil for supporting the rightful resistance of those Israel has ever deemed subhuman and worthy of ethnocidal slughter and physical dispossession? Do you not support the right of an oppressed people to fight back against their oppressors? Apparently not since you intimate the backing of such is evil whilst the endless billions in economic and military appropriations from the US to Israel every year is not so characterised.
I say it's you who displays the true double standard and apologetic for evil.
A very odd and convoluted logic which frankly I find sadly indicative of your entirely surface grasp of both the generations-long Arab-Israeli conflict as well as your understanding of the Zionist ideology and its aims from the earliest days to the present.
I am Anti-Zionist and, like many others both Jew and non-Jew alike who see Zionism and its agenda for what it is and has ever been, perfectly consistent with basic norms of human justice in that regard. The only ones who stand guilty of double standards are those who claim to value democratic principle and yet continue to make any excuse whatsoever for a tyrannical murderous group exceptionalist apartheid state like Israel.
Now this is totally unnecessary and you must know this kind of thing won't be tolerated on these boards. You've been warned about this kind of thing in the past (I'm told), so please consider this your final warning.
As you were.
Not disputing their good intentions.
But there ain't enough of them there to be a force in front of the IDF. One Super Eagle sortie can take them all out.
That should at least stop the appalling bombardment of Lebanon from the air.