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"Business is business"

MixBotMixBot Posts: 8,656 Automated Account
A farmer who builds gallows and has sold them to African countries with poor human rights' records has been condemned by Amnesty International.
David Lucas, of Mildenhall, Suffolk, said he had been selling execution equipment to countries including Zimbabwe for about 10 years.

Amnesty said the export of gallows, which will be made illegal by an EC regulation in July, was "appalling".

But Mr Lucas said the trade was not sick and "business is business".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4754515.stm


Oh the wonders of capitalism :)
Beep boop. I'm a bot.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Oh the wonders of capitalism :)

    Because human rights abuses – and er the death penalty have only occurred where capitalism is existent... :rolleyes: What an utterly pointless sentence.

    Can’t really condone what this guy is doing but it’s a bit far-fetched of Amnesty International to claim that Britain is somehow affecting the existence of the death penalty by one of its citizens selling gallows. Mugabe’s regime isn’t going to have any problem executing those it doesn’t like if Mr. Lucas is barred from selling his gallows.

    It’s immoral admittedly, any decent human being wouldn’t do it – given the nature of Mugabe’s regime it’s evident that innocent people will be on the receiving end. No decent person could live with that. But it’s hardly equivalent to pulling the trigger on the innocent bloke, tbh you could say what the farmer is doing isn’t any worse than say giving Mugabe medical treatment or something. Let Mr. Lucas have it on his conscience, it’s not for the government to outlaw his actions.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Aladdin wrote:

    Oui.

    If someone will buy it, someone will make it.

    The freemarket is a wonderful thing. Anyway... I am off to get that MiG-25 this Iraqi chap is flogging me... brb.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't understand why it would be economically viable for an African country to import from the UK something like this anyway. Surely they could make them locally for a fraction of the price?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because human rights abuses – and er the death penalty have only occurred where capitalism is existent... :rolleyes: What an utterly pointless sentence.

    Way to miss the point brainiac. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because human rights abuses – and er the death penalty have only occurred where capitalism is existent... :rolleyes: What an utterly pointless sentence.

    Can’t really condone what this guy is doing but it’s a bit far-fetched of Amnesty International to claim that Britain is somehow affecting the existence of the death penalty by one of its citizens selling gallows. Mugabe’s regime isn’t going to have any problem executing those it doesn’t like if Mr. Lucas is barred from selling his gallows.

    It’s immoral admittedly, any decent human being wouldn’t do it – given the nature of Mugabe’s regime it’s evident that innocent people will be on the receiving end. No decent person could live with that. But it’s hardly equivalent to pulling the trigger on the innocent bloke, tbh you could say what the farmer is doing isn’t any worse than say giving Mugabe medical treatment or something. Let Mr. Lucas have it on his conscience, it’s not for the government to outlaw his actions.
    Keep that in mind the next time the issue of conducting business with China comes up ;)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Randomgirl wrote:
    I don't understand why it would be economically viable for an African country to import from the UK something like this anyway. Surely they could make them locally for a fraction of the price?
    Yeah I know. £12,000 for a couple of wooden beams nailed together and a piece of rope? Someone is having a fucking laugh...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Oui.

    If someone will buy it, someone will make it.

    The freemarket is a wonderful thing. Anyway... I am off to get that MiG-25 this Iraqi chap is flogging me... brb.
    what a coincidence, I just got back from snagging an F-100 Super Sabre this guy was pawning over in Idaho.

    Care for a round or two sometime?
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    what a coincidence, I just got back from snagging an F-100 Super Sabre this guy was pawning over in Idaho.

    Care for a round or two sometime?

    Sure, no problem!

    I am just stocking up on Missiles at the minute, and rounds for the gun. It's always the extras they get you on. :mad:

    I figured it was time to ditch the ol' 17 for something a bit faster.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is so stupid, leave the fucking farmer alone... they go after a fucking farmer cos what he produced is used for execution when there are fucking weapons of all kind sell around the globe and that are meant to do the exact same things... the farmer probably need the money more than weapons manufacturer...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Sure, no problem!

    I am just stocking up on Missiles at the minute, and rounds for the gun. It's always the extras they get you on. :mad:
    not to mention those fucking insurance payments. :yeees:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    This is so stupid, leave the fucking farmer alone... they go after a fucking farmer cos what he produced is used for execution when there are fucking weapons of all kind sell around the globe and that are meant to do the exact same things... the farmer probably need the money more than weapons manufacturer...
    Isn't the UK one of the biggest arms dealers in the world?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't the UK one of the biggest arms dealers in the world?

    I have no idea...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I know it's in the top eight, and I pretty sure it's in the top five.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    Isn't the UK one of the biggest arms dealers in the world?

    We sure are!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    We sure are!

    And let me guess, UK is proud of it too?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What a strange creature.
  • Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Stalin's Organist Posts: 13,327
    And let me guess, UK is proud of it too?
    Well... business is business!

    Who are we to discriminate who's buying? As long as they don't attack US with it (Although, we did sell the Iraqis alot of stuff, and Iran too. LEt's hope Bush doesn't make us go to war with them!)

    Heheh. It sucks. Stupid Freemarket. But whilst we are using freemarket... let's at least play by its rules.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The arms trade is a deeply unpleasant business, and to be fair it gets its fair amount of stick from countless NGOs and individuals alike.

    This farmer case is unusual, and he deserves as much stick as multinational corporations that sell weapons to Saudi, Thailand or China.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Should we allow the manufacture of knives, they can kill people too?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Way to miss the point.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :chin: :chin: :chin:

    Anyone who pays taxes,I suspect, knows with just a few minutes of thinking that the proceeds will be used to extract (violently if needed) yet more taxes and propagate violence in all directions, including paying for your own gallows.

    BUT

    as Basil Fawlty would say, "Don`t mention the war".

    I guess it`s a lot easier to moralise about others (be it "farmers","arms dealers" etc) than to look at oneself.

    And an ostrich with it`s head in the sand won`t see itself.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Keep that in mind the next time the issue of conducting business with China comes up ;)

    Selling weapons to China – and lifting the arms embargo, something France is desperate to do is completely wrong. For a start China doesn’t just pose a danger to its own people – as Taiwanese and Tibetan people would affirm. And, yes I think Israel is wrong too for flogging weapons to China.

    Sure, we can stop this farmer selling his gallows to make us feel good and feel like we’re doing something to help oppressed Zimbabweans – but whether he sells them or not makes no difference. I don’t think it’s right what he’s doing but I don’t really care since his actions aren’t having any impact whatsoever.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:



    Why does it have anything to with capitalism?

    If the gallows had been produced by a workers collective or by a state run enterprise and then sold or exchanged abroard what would be the difference?

    Just because someone exhibits dubious morals it isn't capitalisms fault.

    Or were you being ironic?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    Why does it have anything to with capitalism?

    If the gallows had been produced by a workers collective or by a state run enterprise and then sold or exchanged abroard what would be the difference?

    Just because someone exhibits dubious morals it isn't capitalisms fault.

    Or were you being ironic?
    Well, you could argue that saying "business is business" in order to justify a sale, no matter how morally reprehensible, emanates from pure capitalist principles.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No it is just immorality (if you think that is what it is)

    There are an equal number of immoral people in any system.

    You might say that capitalism is driven by immoral principles but it is ridiculous to claim the inverse.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't the main (some would say only) goal of capitalism to conduct as much business as possible with the sole object of making as much money as one can?

    If so you could certainly argue that under a capitalist system all other considerations can and most often are put aside.

    I don't think you would find similar examples of unethical conduct being justified by the phrase "business is business" if we didn't live in a capitalist system.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm looking forward to the conspiracy charge in the future when Mugabe etc are tried for crimes against humanity - wasn't that what happened to IG Faber after WWII?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Aladdin wrote:
    Isn't the main (some would say only) goal of capitalism to conduct as much business as possible with the sole object of making as much money as one can?

    If so you could certainly argue that under a capitalist system all other considerations can and most often are put aside.

    I don't think you would find similar examples of unethical conduct being justified by the phrase "business is business" if we didn't live in a capitalist system.

    So Soviet businesses never did anything unethical?

    What you are saying is that this person would have a different set of morals if he lived in a different economic system.

    That to me is ridiculous........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    so let's all go hound this farmer (who obviously has no conscience) when really we all contribute to the deaths of innocent people everyday, britain is responsible for 25% of the global arms trade don't you know, a large proportion of which is small ammunitions which ends up being used in developing countries to oppress and kill people no less innocent than those being oppressed and killed by mugabe.......i don't see many people batting an eyelid at that, where's your conscience now?.....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg wrote:
    So Soviet businesses never did anything unethical?
    I'm sure the Soviet leaders did. Though I thought we were talking about fundamental principles here.

    And the fundamental principle of capitalism is to make as much money as possible by any means necessary... because, as the farmer himself put it "business is business".

    You won't find such philosophy in other systems. That doesn't mean the other systems are faultless or better, but it cannot be denied IMO that capitalism has many ugly aspects, one of them being putting profit before moral principles.
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