Animal Testing

Former Member

Skive wrote:

If you had a serious medical condition that required drugs to treat it I'm sure you would take it - and therefore you'd be connected to the testing and research that went into that drug. That was the point.

I would if the people who loved me ask me too, otherwise for just to save my life for the sake of it, I wouldn't... Never said researchs were useless... I just have different point of you than you on life that is all... and it's not because I wouldn't for myself only that I do not understand your point, I do completly...

Former Member

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Skive

nihilisticmadman wrote:

I would if the people who loved me ask me too, otherwise for just to save my life for the sake of it, I wouldn't...

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

in some rare cases ...In some rare cases!

this fucking nut job keeps talking millions.

he says one thing ...then he says another.

he doesn't care about research i think he is now saying ...but is obviously willing to take the medicines.

he thinks we who are for animal testing ...should volunteer ourselves for testing :eek2:
and can't understand why we think the people against animal testing should be on the table.

guys a fucking nutjob if you read through this thread.

I think you should stop calling names and slinging insults and just realise that not everyone thinks the same way as you. NMM isnt firebombing laboratories nor am i. Just having a debate.
Its an ethical dilemma sure enough. You and most other people think the end justifies the means. thats a particular way of thinking - consequentialism. Another way of thinking is the deontological approach - ie we should live in a certain way, and even good results arent a reason to do bad things.

I just think this is going round in circles.

Former Member

and maybe im a fucking nutjob too :rolleyes: who gives a fuck. I never expected the whole world to think like me.

Former Member

girl with sharp teeth wrote:

I've said it once and I'll say it over and over again - I will never condemn research on animals for medical benefit because my little sister is still alive and going strong, 13 years after she was expected to die.

:yes: My sister quite likely wouldn't be here if she hadn't had drugs that were tested on animals.

Former Member

my cousin has recently been sent home to die, age 30 of C.F.
My dad has heart disease and will probably die from it young, as did my uncle and grandfather. He doesnt take any of the conventional drugs for it as they made him feel worse than the heart disease did - so much for medical advances. he sticks to herbalism and a good diet now.

Doesnt change my views

Former Member

I don't fully agree with or even like animal testing, but when it comes to medical testing it is nessicary. But not for stuff like make up and hair dye. My mother has MS and if testing on animals allows her to be able to enjoy a good quality of life for longer then so be it.

Skive

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

My dad has heart disease and will probably die from it young, as did my uncle and grandfather. He doesnt take any of the conventional drugs for it as they made him feel worse than the heart disease did - so much for medical advances.

And my Mother died from cancer recently and without some of the pain killers she was given it would have been far more painful for her in the last year.

Are you denying that we haven't advanced medically with use of animal testing, simply because your old man doesn't get on with certain drugs.

Former Member

no im not, but morphine and diamorphine have been around for hundreds of years. We dont need extra animal research for that.
Weve come a long way. Ive taken painkillers, antibiotics, street drugs blah blah, ive even used cosmetics that have probably been tested on animals, but i still think its hideous and should end. Theres got to be a point where enough is enough. Animals dont just belong to us to use and abuse for our own gain as and when we feel like it, just because we can. The whole world is getting fucked up by that attitude that we are the greatest. We rule the world and everything in it, so lets completely fuck it up and rape and kill anything we feel like. Its the same thing.
If I get cancer or if someone I love does, its not going to make me think, "oh shit, maybe animals DO deserve to die"

Skive

We do need animal research for new drugs. The question is whether you believe that we need new drugs? Do you believe that it's worth looking into new treatments for AIDS for instance?

I do.

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

so lets completely fuck it up and rape and kill anything we feel like

wtf?

You think the herbs and pesticides that allow your dad to enjoy his heart disease without medical interference have never been tested on animals?

Former Member

the problem seems to be that some people attatch human values or qualities to animals ...like intelect.
and yes ...of course WE rule the world.

Former Member

Kentish wrote:

wtf?

You think the herbs and pesticides that allow your dad to enjoy his heart disease without medical interference have never been tested on animals?

now its my turn to say WTF?

I have never not even once, said that we havent gained anything useful.

Ive said that I didnt think the end necessarily justified the means, and ive said that I think we should put a stop to it, but I havent got the faintest clue what you mean by herbs and pesticides that allow my dad to enjoy his heart disease.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

the problem seems to be that some people attatch human values or qualities to animals ...like intelect.
and yes ...of course WE rule the world.

and I think youll never know the truth.

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

and I think youll never know the truth.

the truth avbout what?

Former Member

about who knows what, whos the greatest, whos more important than others, what the hell we`re here for.

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

now its my turn to say WTF?

I have never not even once, said that we havent gained anything useful.

Ive said that I didnt think the end necessarily justified the means, and ive said that I think we should put a stop to it, but I havent got the faintest clue what you mean by herbs and pesticides that allow my dad to enjoy his heart disease.

Allow me to summarise your view then:
You think we should continue to take advantage of medical knowledge obtained thus far, whether it be through animal testing or not, but we should stop reseraching on animals at this point because we have enough drugs as it is, and half the world's population can't afford what we've already got anyway. Is that about right?

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

what the hell we`re here for.

you believe we are here for a reason?

Former Member

Kentish wrote:

Allow me to summarise your view then:
You think we should continue to take advantage of medical knowledge obtained thus far, whether it be through animal testing or not, but we should stop reseraching on animals at this point because we have enough drugs as it is, and half the world's population can't afford what we've already got anyway. Is that about right?

yep pretty much.
Stop much of the research/phase it out, improve what weve got and the availablity of what weve got. Its far more than half the world that doesnt benefit.

Former Member

What about all the illnesses that still need cures though? Surely if there is the possibilty of curing somebody then we should do it if we can, after all the whole point of medicine and being a doctor is to preserve life.

Former Member

noone can live forever. We cant cheat death. weve already got it pretty good. I just think the end doesnt always justify the means.

Former Member

SuzyCreamcheese wrote:

yep pretty much.
Stop much of the research/phase it out, improve what weve got and the availablity of what weve got. Its far more than half the world that doesnt benefit.

And you'd be happy to explain that to somebody who was dying because a treatment hadn't yet been developed for their condition?

How do you reconcile the use of existing knowledge obtained through probably ethically dubious animal testing in the past, with the denial of potential medical treatments by banning modern medical research?

Former Member

http://www.buav.org/medicalresearch/animalmodels.html
http://www.justiceforanimals.co.za/anti_vivisection.html
http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/viv/viv.shtml

http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/online/research/thalid2.html

http://www.idausa.org/ir/reports/medtesting.html

Former Member

True, we do have it extremely good. Just to pick up on something you said earlier, how we shouldn't be wasting money on medial research when so many people in other countries go hungry (etc). Where does the medical research money come from? Is medical research directly taking money away from third world aid?

Edit - I meant to quote SCC

Former Member

Kentish wrote:

And you'd be happy to explain that to somebody who was dying because a treatment hadn't yet been developed for their condition?

?

how do you face your children in twenty years time when they have contracted a serious illness ...'well in mummies day they did all manner of research for ill people but ...we felt sorry for the rats and mice so stopped doing further research ...otherwise we may well now have been able to prevent or cure your condition ...tough kid'.

nio thinks we shouldn't mess with other life but doesn't mind going colonising another planet ...if he discovered there was some form of life there ...would he apologise and leave ...head back to a dying earth?

Former Member

hypocrisy is the devil!

we stand on this platform that we have created,then take a different stance?

is our very existance meaningless then?

are we not top of the food chain then?

we kill,we use and we live!.......the human being!........thats you btw!

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

nio thinks we shouldn't mess with other life but doesn't mind going colonising another planet ...if he discovered there was some form of life there ...would he apologise and leave ...head back to a dying earth?

I have never said we shouldn't mess around with it, but respect it... And I was pointing a fact that animals tests do not guarantee there will be no harm to humans... it just give a false guarantee... a guarantee just sufficient for businesses to start selling products... and was also pointing that humans testing at early stages could find cures that couldn't be limitting to animals testing... of course medicine did some good and will continue doing such, but there is a difference between researchs, tests and cruelty with disrespect of life...

We know there is nothing on Mars... and if we did find a life there did I said we should take their planet or destroy them... no i didn't... I assumed that there was nothing there based on the facts we have and it could be wrong... and let's be obvious I wouldn't make this decision, humans would just take it... cos that what humans do... humans even go to war to get a pieces of some other humans country... even if there is no good reasons to do so...

Former Member

nihilisticmadman wrote:

I have never said we shouldn't mess around with it, but respect it... And I was pointing a fact that animals tests do not guarantee there will be no harm to humans... it just give a false guarantee... a guarantee just sufficient for businesses to start selling products... and was also pointing that humans testing at early stages could find cures that couldn't be limitting to animals testing... of course medicine did some good and will continue doing such, but there is a difference between researchs, tests and cruelty with disrespect of life...

We know there is nothing on Mars... and if we did find a life there did I said we should take their planet or destroy them... no i didn't... I assumed that there was nothing there based on the facts we have and it could be wrong... and let's be obvious I wouldn't make this decision, humans would just take it... cos that what humans do... humans even go to war to get a pieces of some other humans country... even if there is no good reasons to do so...

theres usualy a reason for taking.
lets take oil as an example.
we take it ...by force ...killing and destroying along the way.
your living a very comfortable and privalaged life because of it ...the only escape ...is go live inb a cave me thinks.
me ...i'm happy to keep taking the oil ...keep living in the manner i have become accustomed to.
if theres a fairer way ...it has passed.
we are now in the age of resource wars ...the least of MY worries ...is a few rats to be honest.

Former Member

morrocan roll wrote:

theres usualy a reason for taking.
lets take oil as an example.
we take it ...by force ...killing and destroying along the way.
your living a very comfortable and privalaged life because of it ...the only escape ...is go live inb a cave me thinks.
me ...i'm happy to keep taking the oil ...keep living in the manner i have become accustomed to.
if theres a fairer way ...it has passed.
we are now in the age of resource wars ...the least of MY worries ...is a few rats to be honest.

I have never said animals testing was the first of my worries... or that is was on of my worry at all... there is plenty of most scary things to be worried about in today society... now you are happy to go to war when you said you didn't wanted to vote anymore cos too much killing was done on your name... we both know wars is not always done because of need for ressource... you don't have to go and kill innoncents to get ressource... you can just buy those ressources... you don't agree on testing humans but you accept the killing of innoncent for ressources ... or maybe some humans living in countries not as powerful as those we are living in are inferior for you and your comfort pass before their humans lifes...