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You have to bear in mind that Islam considers making any representation of their prophet (may his name be blessed) blasphemous, so a satyrical one will be a bit of a strain. But if you look at the reception "Jerry Springer - the Opera" received you can see it isn't just the muslims who over-react.
Shoudn't this be in P+D?
Perhaps you should watch one of the many Islamic beheading videos found online...
it is
Yes, although there’s no doubt that even the mainstream Muslim reaction has been even more aggressive, threatening and violent than the anger of a small fringe Christian group to Jerry Springer the Opera. Somebody else contrasted how Salmon Rushdie still years on after publishing the Satanic Verses receives armed police protection because of the vast number of Muslims that still want to murder him, simply for exercising his right to free speech. There are extreme elements in Christianity however it would seem the extreme elements within Islam are far bigger and far more dangerous.
However the percentage of Muslims who subscribe to extremism is still low.
The majority... no- The GREAT majority of Muslims are not extremists or condone violence. Unless someone can prove me wrong by providing evidence to the contrary.
Hahaha, what a retarded notion to try to put across. Who do these people really think they are? I mean do they honestly think they are influencing the world with these little rallies. Considering their lughable over the top reaction it wouldnst surprise me to see a spate of even more graphically mocking cartoons relating to Islam from now on.
I mean Islam had its day back when it was on a par with the rest of the world, now most Islamic nations are poor, conquered or stuck under the rule of the few rich royals of that kingdom state.
Bin Laden on his way"
Quite catchy innit
How about:
Don't Kill the Infidel
We've got oil left to sell!
Well some supposedly ‘moderate’ Muslims supported the fatwa against Salmon Rushdie; Cat Stevens being the most famous. Muslim reaction to Rushdie was in this country extremely hostile; Rushdie still has police protection and there’s a genuine danger to his life because so many Muslims want to kill him. That is simply not the case with others who have offended Christians in similar terms.
The Muslim Council of Britain is a supposedly moderate Muslim organisation. Yet its Secretary General Sir Iqbal Sacranie is openly homophobic, advocated a Muslim boycott of Holocaust Memorial Day and has demanded a ‘full and unambiguous apology’ from the Danish government – a government whose only crime is supporting freedom of expression. Aladdin – if it wasn’t the Muslim Council of Britain acting like this but instead an evangelical Christian organisation I wonder what your reaction would be.
Like you I have no problem with the many Muslims that live in Europe and accept the democratic freedoms we expect, the Muslims I know are like anyone else and the efforts of the BNP to demonise all Muslims are vile and hateful. However, it’s undeniable that there is a creed of Islam that a large number of Muslims support that is incompatible with those of a civilised democracy; I do not see why Britain should tolerate a restriction on freedom of expression and tolerate homophobia and anti-Semitism to appease a militant and extreme section of the Muslim community.
If he doesn't like it here he can always fuck off back to Saudi.
As for Salman Rushdie, the reaction was very dangerous. Riots in Bradford for weeks after that book came out. Which is a shame, because most people from the Islamic communities are proud of the democracy you get here, and don't have in many other places around the world.
Can we say a large number of Catholics are homophobic and profoundly sexist, based on the opinions of their leader?
When we see large scale demonstrations here and elsewhere asking for killings and violence there might be a better case for those who argue large sectors of Muslims are violent. All I've seen until now is a few dozen idiots outside the BBC, and a couple of hundred twats in Indonesia (Muslim population: 212 million).
You do.
But that does happen, the riots in Bradford after the Satanic Verses, the riots in Bradford after ten BNP numpties turned up at the Interchange, etc etc.
Personally I don't think large sectors are; the large minority are peaceful, because- oddly enough- they're exactly the same as the rest of us. But there does seem to be a big problem of minority violence in the Islamic community, and instead of addressing the violent pimps and rapists and rioters, they are blaming it all on "racism" and basically saying its not their problem.
After the riots in 2001 Bradford's Islamic community did take out full-page adverts saying sorry, but they only appeared after business interests in the area seriously suffered. And even after that, the rioters got their already lenient sentences cut further because ten BNP numpties at the Interchange created a "matrix of racial fear".
That is not representative of a Muslim population of many tens of thousands.
Ironic, how they love the idea of free speech and being able to say whatever the hell they want, no matter how racist it is. And yet, when the tables are turned, they say how wrong the world is.
Hypocritical, idiotic, racist and violent thugs, who should be strung up like any other racist and violent thug should be.
Not really. From the point of view of any fanatic, the difference is that they are right.
Theres also an inherent contradiction in saying that everyone should be allowed to say whatever they want - or else!
There is no desire for free speech from any fundie of any stripe. Whether it be a christian fundie, an islamic fundie, a statist fundie or an atheist fundie. Each one of those is convinced they are right and that everyone else should shut the fuck up and get in line.
Perhaps not although surely the Muslim Council of Britain is somewhat representative of Muslim opinion? Yet this organisation isn’t defending freedom of expression and criticising the threatening and aggressive response of many Muslims to these cartoons – instead they’re demanding an apology from the Danish government.
If not the Muslim Council of Britain why are there not other Muslim groups expressing their opposition to the actions of many Muslims expressing opposition to a basic democratic right? After all – you seem to think the vast majority of Muslims aren’t homophobic, anti-Semitic and do respect free speech.
I wish that were the case and while for a lot of Muslims you’re right there’s a very large minority, if not a narrow majority of Muslims that hold extreme views incompatible with the rights cherished in a civilised democracy.
The realisation that this whole thing will probably negatively affect Muslims who don’t have a problem with our democratic values saddens me, I really hope that isn’t the case but realistically I think it will be.
They're not expressing themvelves either way. And since they're not, you cannot accuse them of being homophobic, anti-Semitic or anti-freedom of expression.
I'm interested to know... why is the Muslim council of Britain anti-semitic anyway?
With regard to the freedom of expression issue, I myself believe that the press should have the right to publish that cartoon (though many others do not including members of the British government). I however believe that some things should not be allowed to be said (for instance if someone went and said "all blacks are evil, rapists and savages). Would that make me "anti-freedom of expression?" :rolleyes:
Rubbish.
No. But representing a constituency with a large Muslim population he knows full well he’ll lose his seat if doesn’t use harsh words. Also, seeing the consequences Denmark is facing for standing up to basic democratic principles he doesn’t want the hassle; as Foreign Secretary he unsurprisingly doesn’t want to be sent to Saudi Arabia to grovel when Saudi Arabia start making threatening noises regarding oil supply. (Which if he didn’t condemn these cartoons there’d be a risk of arguably).
They’ve defended patently anti-Semitic Muslims. They also boycotted Holocaust Memorial Day for no good reason; although that’s a different thread in itself.
Completely irrelevant, can’t we stick to what’s actually been printed?
Your double standards are growingly tiresome; if instead of Muslims this were Christians or Jews your reaction would be far less sympathetic. You’re in denial about how extreme a worryingly large number of Muslims are.
Believe it or not there many non-Muslims out there out there who believe you cannot deliberately cause offence like that.
If you think completely ignoring the ordeal of up to 20% of the victims of the Holocaust is no good reason, then you're right...
No, it's not completely irrelevant at all. Claiming someone is "anti-freedom of expression" is a very heavy accusation but one that doesn't apply to simply everyone who protests at the publication of a specific item. I'm sure there are Muslims out there as well as people from every other walk of life/background who are genuinely anti-freedom of expression and would like to censor pretty much anything they don't like. But there are many others who genuinely believe in freedom of expression but who also believe deliberately setting out to offend an entire people goes beyond all reason.
You are the first one to rave against people like David Irving and you didn't seem terribly upset when he was jailed. It seems that freedom of expression it's great so long as it doesn't talk about certain issues.
Some people might want to call that hypocrisy.
I've never defended extremist behaviour. But I'm getting increasingly tired of people joining the lazy, no-brain-cells-required school of thought that a few albeit very vocal individuals represent hundreds of millions of people round the world.
You'd earlier said that there might even be a majority of Muslims who hold ''extreme'' views. I suggest you back that up.
Unfortunately it wasn't the only reaction and at least it was milder then so parts of the world. Indonsnseia they stroemd an embassy an dtook hostahges for god's sake.
I was truely appalled at this. No admittedly I haven't seen the Danish cartoons bu tnothing can justify that reactiona dn I have to say what the hell is their problem?? I mean Jesus Christ, the highest figure of Christianity apart from God, (and there is an argument about him being god anyway), has been drawn in cartoons, ridiculed, taken the piss out off, presented as doing things he wouldnt do for years. Yet do you seem marche sof christians saying "behead the maers of South Park!" Hell no. Yes there are people that don't like it, like some1 up there said abotu Jerry Springer, and there are a few nuts in the South of the US who say stupid things and church groups in th uk who trun there noses up but nothing on the scale of world wide rioting as we saw the other day.
Now, in the same week 2 members of the BNP have been put on trial for inciting racial ahtred and violence etc etc. Now I don't agree or support the BNP so don't anyone say I do but lest look at the 2 cases.
The 2 BNP members held a private member sonly invite only meeting, indoors, where they made a number of claims, including a critiscm of Islam and alegations about stephan lawerance and asian youth gangs.
The stephan lawernce calims, without proof are slander, not racims but slander.
The comments on Islma were a critiscim, offensive perhspas, even a touch racist but did I hear any comments saying "kill muslims" or "behead all ethnic minorites". No there wasn't.
Now, look at the protestors. Death threats, inciting violence and murder. Fact.
The BNP men were put on trial for what they said. Will these protesters be put on trial? No. Why? Its just the same, no worse then what those BNP guys did but nothing will be done.
Its hypocracy and racism.
If you can't make comments and death threats then fine, put them on trial but you can't have one rule for one and another for another group.
Either all those prostestors should be arrested and put on trial like the BNP members were or none of them should.
Simple.
I really cannot see any justifciation for those acts and you talk to these people and all they say is "muslim oppression over the world by the west" what a load of bollocks. The only oppression going on is people like them threating to kill people. Now I know u may disagree what with palstine and all but really its true. Its not this great conspiracy by the wets to fuck over all the muslims. Its just a convient ecuse for all these zealots to spread hatred an lies.
Those signs supported Bin laden. A known terrorist. Its a disgrace that nothing has been done to these people and what gets me is, all this over some fucking cartoons/???
get a sense of humour!
One question. When you talk about the double standars regarding the BNP chaps and the Muslim protesters and say:
What racism are you referring to? Against whom?
Double standards.
I can’t be bothered to dig up old threads but I condemned the arrest of David Irving, he’s a truly nasty anti-Semite but I don’t think he should be in jail.
Although what Irving does is quite different to the Danish newspaper, I don’t know how you can even compare the two. A satirical parody that would be very unlikely to endanger anyone is very different to inciting extreme hatred against a particular group and denying the Holocaust.
Also, I suggest you bother to research Holocaust Memorial Day. The Muslim Council of Britain’s excuse that it was not inclusive was a complete and utter propagandistic lie and rejected by other groups.
http://www.hmd.org.uk/about/aims/default.asp
Anyway Aladdin if you’re honestly claiming that had these Danish cartoons being directed at Christians or Jews and they had responded in the same barbarous way as a large number of Muslims your response would be the same I don’t believe you.
but who would they be able to threaten then? thered be no one to offend them! :yes: