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Glad to see you are well informed Blagsta, race and subspecies are indeed the same thing according to my lecturer at Edinburgh Uni. I'm sure any morons who think otherwise can debate with him
Out of context quotes are a poor debating strategy. The genetic basis of race is an irrefutable fact, I know of no serious Biologist who thinks otherwise.
As for the actual topic of this thread - does the media censor racial crimes - then I'd have to say yes. The Kirss Donald murder was not given a fraction of the publicity of the Lawrence murder, both horrific murders ( Kirss 15 abducted from the street by 4 Asian men in their 30's/ 40's ) so why the lack of outrage ?
No t.v cathedral service, no hand wringing from Tony Blair - makes you wonder.....
Yes, but for sub-species to exist you need to be able to define them, scientifically, something you can not do with 'races'. Many countries have tried and failed miserably.
I agree with the first bit. However, I think you'll find that you can go out and prove the genetic similarities of all kinds of things that aren't regarded as being a "race" because no one is looking for them.
Very bad science to have a conclusion and then look for facts to fit it. Apart from twins, every single human is genetically distinct from all the others. True or false?
And even twins have distinct personalities and individual cultures, don't they?
Let's make a few things clear shall we?
1. There was outrage at the murder
2. However the Stephen Lawrence murder has attracted more attention due to a unique set factors, namely:
- there was a monumental fuck-up by the police that led to Lawrence's killers escaping justice
- the fuck-up was due to ignorance and prejudice in the hands of the police (he was a black kid, therefore he must have been a drug dealer and killed by one of his peers, right?
- this fuck up by the police was subsequently deemed to be caused by insititutionalised racism by a public enquiry, leading to a heated debated in the press and elsewhere
- the subhuman racist criminal scumbags who killed him are still free and giving Nazi salutes to anyone who cares to ask them to, leading to a long debate regarding double jeopardy rules
Do you understand now why the Stephen Lawrence case has had far more publicity than other racially motivated murders?
Not sure what you mean, klintock, taxonomy is an evolving subject, howevever expressed genes are an indication of the genetic separation of life forms on the planet.
The conclusions that any scientist will draw can only be based on observing the reality of the subject before him, then drawing a conclusion from that, for that conclusion to be accepted he will have to defend his position with data, facts, logical, argument
Yes all humans are genetically distinct, accepting twins from the same egg. Indeed, yet groups share a common set of characteristics passed down from their ancestors. Humans share 98% of their genes with Chimps - not that surprising you might say but we also share about 70% with certain types of plant.
The fact is race is a reality, if you understand that evolution is based on competing groups, these relativley small subspecies become over time entirley new species.
No not really.
The subhuman etc who killed Kriss Donald were helped by their community to escape to Pakistan. No outrage by the media.
As I understand it the killers of Stephen Lawrence were tried in front of a jury but found not guilty - or was the jury all racists ?
Same as O.J Simpson - but he was innocent right?
Murder is a terrible crime yet some seem get more publicty for political reasons.
That has to be said.
I can think of a thousand different cases where the murder of a white, blonde woman or well-to-do man has attracted about 1,000% more column inches than the murder of a black person. But let's not play the race game shall we?
You understand it wrong. The trial failed due to a monumental fuck up by the police, who refused to investigate leads for weeks because it simply assumed Lawrence must have been some kind of criminal killed by 'his own kind' rather than murdered by a bunch of naziboys.
Nice try
And within those groups (arbitary constructions of the mind) individuals compete, because no two organism's have any link between them. (Well, maybe chang and eng)
Ever person is a one shot deal, never to be repeated, and totally alone.
As the idea of race is hundreds of years older than scientific method, this is bollocks. The idea of race came first and then the proof for it afterwards, Like I said before, you can find a common genetic link between people with green eyes, but until some fuckwit decides it means anything and starts interning them or whatever, it's meaningless.
People have meaning's for things, things don't have meaning. Think about it.
Very little outrage by any national media/political leader outside of Scotland.
Hmmm you should really think about what you just wrote...I can think of many cases of people getting away with murder - racial and otherwise.
But that need not be racist, unless the police ignored the witnesses, wasn't his pal chased by the same gang? So why weren't they convicted ? All due to racism of course :rolleyes:
Yea, notice that all the time when studying Crossbills.......Foxes, Peregrine Falons.....
Your logic escapes me.....got a link to green eyed ethnic internment? is that on the same site as the moon landing hoax ....they went to Tibet you know......
Five Kingdoms
An Illustrated Guide to the Phyla of Life on Earth
Authors - LynnMargulis and Karlene V. Schwartz
Foreword by Stephen Jay Gould
'A sampler of life that does its subject justice ...' New Scientist
' It is remarkable that no one has thought of produciing such a comprehensive , obvious, and valuable document (Margulis and Schwartz) '
- Stephen Jay Gould- ( don't suppose you'll know who he was)
W.H. Freeman and Company , 41 Madison Avenue, New York
You want the Library of Congress Number, Blagsta?
Try your imaginary library Blagsta - sure you've got one
I wonder why do you insist on trying to make a case of this one... :rolleyes:
Mmmm maybe you should try reading the papers and informing yourself on the Lawrence case :rolleyes:
No, due to police incompetence partially motivated by institutionalised racism. Do you have a problem with that, or claim it is not true?
That is not a reference and you (should) know it.
Well that's the whole point, isn't it. You are seeing a group when in fact there are just distinct, individual organisms. You've decided to see a similarity as in say, the classification of elephants and voles in the same family. It's still arbitary and made up.
No, the whole point is that there hasn't been any green eyed persons internment because no one has given any meaning to it. They could do quite easily though, because all the crap you've spieled out for the existence of races could be used to justify differences between "green eyes" and the rest of the world. It isn't because that distinction has no value politically or sociologically and has never popped up historically. If it had done you would be arguing it's factual basis already.
You see similarity only to a certain depth and difference only to a certain depth, both of which you have chosen, both of which mean something only to yourself.
Standard textbook on my Ecology course.
If you don't known this stuff you will not understand the basis of classification.
That is not a reference to the points you made. As you would know if you were actually doing a university course.
Quotes and page numbers is a reference. An entire book isn't.
They are interbreeding groups, sharing common physiognomy, behaviour patterns and survival strategies, due to shared genetic inheritance. i.e species
I state reality - race exists - so what ? It's seems quite important to any African people I've met, they were proud of their heritage. Why would you have a problem with that? Would you tell a Nigerian that his race or tribe is a figment if his imagination ? Wars around the world are fought on such issues, nothing at all to do with whether you or I can recognise any difference between two sets of people, the fact is they can recognise it and it's very important to them and their sense of identity.
I can only observe objective reality - I'll leave solipsism to others.
Wrong way round. You lump things that you perceive to be similar into groups for further study. This can be a useful fiction, no doubt. The real world doesn't give two shits how many distinctions you make or where you draw your imaginary lines.
In the real world, each thing is unique. Like I said, you only see to a certain depth of difference and a certain depth of similarity. The "objective fact" is that no two organisms are the same.
Yep, have done many times. I also would tell him that theres no such thing as Nigeria either. Be scientific, look at the earth from space. Do you see any borders, any lines accross it denoting Nigeria? No of course you don't, it's only in people's heads. It's Santa Claus for adults, a comfy fiction to keep the darkness out.
Yes, because we all know that violence creates facts, doesn't it? Fact is, many wars have been fought over ideas that are false. Big deal. Men used to kill each other for god because of a few lines of scripture was interpreted differently by them. Idiots, obviously.
Nah mate, that's my schtick. You seem content to beleive in crap that has no evidential basis.
You are hilarious, the World does give a shit, difference is the ruling factor in all human interactions.
..and no two groups are the same- as defined by themselves
Yes you will if you look close enough...
BTW ..did you get a punch in the mouth from the Nigerian guy ? just tell him his tribe dosen't exist
You have a great career in front of you at the petrol station.
Try this http://www.eou.at/AbstractsWorkshop.pdf
The work I was involved in was to determine, by using sonograms whether the Scottish Crossbill was a distinct species or a subspecies, there is still a debate but balance is moving toward a separate species rather than a subspecies/race.