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And if someone publicly denies the Holocaust happened does so where there is a law against it, like Irving has done, then I don't have any problem whatsoever with them facing the consequences.
The BNP would have won countless life bans to date in my book. Their existence could be just about tolerated, so long as they don't spread any further racist filth or incite hatred- which, let's face it, they do regularly.
I must say it's all very selfless of you guys to be so charitable towards such people... given that if they ever got the opportunity they would create a totalitarian regime and remove all freedoms and rights at once.
Well, just because they want to limit free speech doesn't mean the rest of us should...
Credible estimates I understand estimate 5.1-6 million Jews including 3-3.5 million Polish Jews.
For you to say ‘the holocaust did happen but 6 million Jews did not die’ is very provocative, especially with no historical justification whatsoever. I don’t think you do but many who dispute the numbers in the Holocaust have an ulterior motive in attempting to trivialise the Holocaust. 5 million or 6 million? Both are just incomprehensible numbers, the Holocaust happened and how so many people were murdered so systematically in such an evil way I think that rather than numbers should be the focus. And regardless; the conclusions of numerous credible historians supported by primary sources/documentation support the accepted figures.
6million jews might not have died but 5-6million people died, the majority of whom were jewish the rest were disabled, black, gay, communists and anyone seen as an opponent of the government
The answer is none. You can question who was really behind 9/11, or who killed Diana or whether Jesus existed, but woe betide anyone who dares to dig a little deeper into the events surrounding the "Final solution" - why is this?
"What kind of truth needs this kind of protection" should be your logical responses to the news that a man faces 20 years in jail for challenging its orthodoxy.
It is no wonder that this current government has trampled upon our constitutional rights and continues to take away our rights to free speech whilst we sit back idly and gormlessly applaud as "Thought criminals" are sent to the Gulags - George Orwell anybody?
No credible revisionist historian denies that there was a genocide and atroctities comitted against Jews, what revisionists like Irving argue is that there was no systematic attempt by the Nazis to mass exterminate European Jewry. You really havent got past the History channel with regards to this subject have you.
I challenge you now to prove what you are claiming.
Your ramblings frankly do not warrant any proper response. Your ulterior agenda is obvious from the tone of your posts to me, I cannot be bothered to attempt to prove it from your two posts although I doubt I’m alone in sensing it.
Whilst I do find this subject extremely difficult for a few reasons my reading and knowledge of this subject extends far beyond the History channel.
Your fictitious claim supported by a paraphrasing of Irving – and actually implying that Irving is not as extreme as he really is displays the sort of shady individual that you are.
Do you think Irving is a ‘credible revisionist historian’ then? Somewhat of a coincidence isn’t it that this thread pops up, you register for the forum and suddenly express a very extreme and discredited opinion?
Theres not a lot you can be bothered to do is there, you are running for cover and you know it
The reason you find this subject "difficult" is because there is no universally accepted story to accompany it, you will be hard pressed to find two publications that give you the same story, the death toll ranges from 1 - 20 million depending on whos particular version your reading.
Even the high priests of the holocaust industry, the "mainstream" historians such as Piper and Lipstadt cannot agree on what really happened, it was Piper who revised the Auchwitz death toll from 4 million down to 1.5 million, yet no ones tried to arrest him, Deborah Lipstadt has accepted that the "Jewish soap story" was nothing more than Allied and Soviet propaganda, yet she still remains at liberty and is still seen as an "expert".
What the hell do you mean by "extreme"? I dont recall Irving preaching hatred Abu Hamza style or going out physically attacking those that do not agree with him, which is exactly what his opponents do to him and anyone who dares to go and listen to him.
Irving's crime is that he is prepared to face up to Fascists like yourself with hard facts - that is why he is in Jail.
Well i joined last night and this thread was riding high, and some of the braindead Fascist views that i saw here incensed me so much that i had to post.
And for what its worth, i am not even "right wing" let alone a Nazi (as you will see). i am just stating the truth as i see it, if you can "re-educate me" then please do it, because as David Irving will tell you from his cell, it is far easier and safer to be a "believer" rather than a "defier".
You will also find that the Six million figure was first claimed way back in 1919!
It coicides nicely with the Jewish messianic prophesy that says that 6 million Jews will die before the Jewish "messiah" returns to rule the world
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html
Israel's population is 6.2m of whom 80% are Jewish. You'd think if 6m Jews had emmigrated they'd have a slightly higher population (to say nothing of the fact the British were counting them - they had a quota system in place). US and the UK accepted only small amounts of refugees in the lead-up to the war.
And could I have more details on the claim that 6m Jews were to die in a holocaust that didn't happen for another twenty years. Sounds bollocks to me...
The fact is that Europe was in chaos in 1945, there were millions of refugees all over the continent and it was an impossibilty to know exactly who was who and where they were all going to. Some stayed, some ended up trapped behind the iron curtain, some went to Israel, some went to Britain, Australia, South Africa and the Americas. It has been estimated that New York alone is today home to around 1 million "holocaust survivors".
Indeed you can, i recommend you read D. Heddesheimer's "The first Holocaust" a book which documents Jewish claims that 6 million of their number had been murdered from as far back as 1900 until 1927, i must correct my earlier post regarding 1919, this was just the most famous of the claims, an article published in the 31st October 1919 edition of "The American Hebrew" in which Martin H Glyn, governer of the State of New York described how 6 million Jews had been mass exterminated during WWI.
Also UNHCR managed to make some pretty accurate estimates on the number of refugees - so your claim that they went anywhere with no-one working out where they went is spurious at best.
You have no idea why I find the Holocaust a difficult subject. Thanks for telling me why I find it a hard subject to deal with - your guess is wrong. I won't expand on my reasons for the benefit of a Nazi sympathiser which since you defend David Irving are in my eyes.
With each post you discredit yourself anyway, infowars.com?
Of course there were millions killed in the concentration/death camps.
What not 6 million only 2,, oh well that’s all right then well there’s me thinking it was 6 when it was only 2,, or 3 did you say,, oh well that’s not as bad as 6 I suppose Id say it would defiantly be naughty if it went over say,, 4 million, less than that we can forget.
Any way if seen video of Irving addressing a neo Nazi rally where he defiantly said that the Holocaust was the fault of the Jews.
He greeted somebody by saying “you’ve shook the hand that shook the hand that had shook the hand of the Furher
He probably has got a lot of facts right with his assessment but at the least he’s guilty of unprofessional exaggeration.
He’s a Nazi apologist for Hitler and everybody knows it
If scholars expose his work as bullshit and make clear his assertions are fallacies, then Irvine becomes a marginal joke figure.
Actually sending this guy to prison for questioning the extent of the holocaust is ridiculous. Probably quite a few conspiracy-minded people looking at this and thinking to themselves that Irvine must be onto something if he's getting threatened with jail.
Wrong move to make imo.
You suggest that many escaped, and certainly some did, but those who got away then attempted to make contact with any relatives or at least to make enquiries as to who remained.
They could not escape to Israel because it didn't exist - it was still Palestine and under British rule, and not only did Britains refuse to let many in during the war, but after the war too they were turning away refugees.
Most of Polish Jewry were religiously observant and whole communities were wiped out.
And why is it so important to remember the holocaust (and in particular not to deny it?). Maybe because these evils are still prevalent today, albeit on a slightly smaller scale. What about Bosnia in 1995?
How do you know that?
Let me give you an instance, a few years ago a Jewish Holocaust survivor appeared on the Montel Williams show in the US, he told his story and how he had been told at the end of the war that his entire family had been exterminated.
After the show had finished the Montel Williams show received an emotional call from Canada...it was the mans long lost family, who had all survived and had been told that it was he who had been exterminated.
Could i also add that i have answered every point you have made, yet you and your exterminationist conspiracy theory friends have answered to none of mine. Your tactic is to keep running off on tangents hoping to pin me on something you feel you might find an inconsistancy, no matter how slight.
I will now start to ask you specifics and you will try to answer it i hope.....what better place to begin than the Holocaust centerpiece, Auchwitz.
The chief curator at the Auchwitz museum, Dr Joachim Piper has admitted that the infamous "gas chamber" at the camp was "re-constructed" after the war by the Poles, because apparently by the time the Red Army "liberated" the camp, the "Gas chamber" was being used by the Germans as an air raid shelter. He admits walls have been knocked down and that the supposed celing holes used by the Germans to insert the deadly Zyclon B gas canisters have also been "added for authenticity" by the Poles after the war. Now my questions are...
1) Do you deny this?
2) If not, can the Gas chambers at Auchwitz be used as concret evidence kniowing that the crime scene and the evidence has been tampered with?
That shouldn't, however, proscribe someone from claiming the holocaust was exaggerated and threaten them with a jail sentence. It's very dangerous ground.
As I said...what's wrong with leaving the matter for historians?
It should be noted though, that people who defend Irving and his ilk often have a political axe to grind. Don't you Lawrence?
But weren't many put on trial and got sent to prison or something?
You'll need to provide links to those claims. I'm not saying you're wrong but the rules here are very clear.
Because I can't be arsed to travel to America, get a pass to the Library of Congress and look it up myself I want a reputable source which confirms what you said.
Because I've bothered to look.
So there are charlatans and others who were lucky. Hardly a compelling point that the Holocaust didn't exist.
Not inconsitencies - you claim Rosa Luxemberg was part of a communist conspiracy to overthrow Weimar and its lucky Hitler got in fact. The fact she was dead fourteen years is not an inconsitency but evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes, but my entire argument started with the fact that Auschwitz is irrelevant. If our only evidence for the Holocaust came from it, yes you might have a point. However, our evidence comes from lots of things - not least documentary evidence from the third reich, confessions of Germans involved in it and the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people who either were in the camps (not just Jews) or liberated them.
Your evidence on the other hand comes from some dodgy books no reputable company touches and the rather naive belief if its on the internet it must be true.
Although of course, the only people claiming this are themselves holocaust deniers. There is no other reference on the net to this apart from revisionist history sites.
It might seem like ancient history but it isnt, in fact the Holocaust story grows and becomes more relevant as time passes away from the period, and this is where you might say my agenda lies.
I oppose what i see as the gravest issue of our time, Zionism and Racial Supremacism, with its control of the American senate, is slowly but surely bringing about World war Three and the Holocaust is being used as Zionisms "Sword and shield", let me refer you to Nahum Goldmann one time president of the World Jewish congress writing in 1978, "The Germans will have paid out a total of 80 Billion... without the German reperations that started coming through during the first ten years, as a state, Israel would not have half of its present infrastructure: All the trains in Israel are German, the ships are German, and the same goes for electrical installations and a great deal of Israels industry...and that is setting aside the individual pensions paid to survivors."
It doesnt end here, there is the emotional aspect, an even more powerful tool in many respects, because due to the Holocaust, Jewish and Israels agendas are now beyond any kind of criticism, which is a dangerous state of affairs - Challenge Israel for bombing a Refugee camp and killing children = Anti-Semetism = Mass muder.
Auschwitz
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFE0085A
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFC0083A
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFW0084A
Buchenwald
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFB0088S
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFB0087L
Ohrdruf
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFO0092L
Dora-Mittelbau
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFL0030N
Bergen-Belsen
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFB0099W
Dachau
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFD0089L
Mauthausen
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFM0091L
Ebensee
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFE0312A
U.S. prosecution details of medical experiments upon people
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFA0423N
U.S. POW's description of his and his comrades treatment at Mauthausen camp
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/viewer/wlc/film.php?RefId=DFM0090P
Its all a Jewish conspiracy! Head for the hills! :rolleyes:
"We must establish incredible events by credible evidence"
U.S Chief Prosecutor Robert Jackson, June 7, 1945
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/warcrimetrials/
And Israel is never criticised?
It certainly is in nearly every newspaper I read and in nearly every thread on the middle east here.
Your the boss though, if you insist, i will go and find it.