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What makes an action right or wrong?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
I am not taking a personal view here, or trying to be subversive, just setting out the issue to debate. Why is it that some actions are considered acceptable while others are considered wrong? And some actions are considered right by some and wrong by others, e.g. taking cocaine.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Good question.

    Does it hurt someone else is my answer. If it doesn't, it's fine. If it does, it's wrong. Oh, and only physical harm counts.

    What usually happens is that this line gets blurred by the likelihood of something happening to hurt someone by something that is in itself harmless. i.e. taking drugs harms no-one else but the user, unless they start behaving irrationally and then put others safety at risk, or shooting a gun in all directions without ever hitting anyone.

    I think the phrase is "your right to swing your fists ends at my nose."
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Oh, and only physical harm counts.
    No, not quite.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, not quite.

    That was my answer - it still is. If you think something different by all means post away, but please don't correct my opinions. Ta.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Right and Wrong is subjective. Trying to make it objective is a worthless matter.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yep! everything that everyone does they think is right because in everyones heads they are the "hero" of the story! Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Lennin, all genocidal maniacs responsible for horrific attrocities and yet all would believe they are right and justified and doing nothing wrong in their own heads.

    Just because the law says something wrong doesnt make it wrong as laws come and go, change and are fluid. for instance, Crucifixtions were in no way wrong in ancient rome, they were a tried and tested method of punishment for crimes, but today they are barbaric.

    although in the case of drug taking, it is still wrong because, harming ones self with toxins is just as bad as harming some one else. it is one thing to take drugs to remove pain, but for recreational use its just retarded.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    subject13 wrote:
    it is one thing to take drugs to remove pain, but for recreational use its just retarded.

    You've never had a drink or a smoke?

    I think the above statement is wrong. Factually wrong too actually... harming oneself is often done. It's an escape for some. A fun thing for others. An eligtening journey too. If we didn't have drugs, I doubt we would have such things as Alice in Wonderland. Fear and Loathing... the list could go on.

    Right and wrong though. Depends. Killing is wrong... sometimes. Stealing is wrong... sometimes. But, one thing that is always wrong is... parking just round a blind corner. God, tossers.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    although in the case of drug taking, it is still wrong because, harming ones self with toxins is just as bad as harming some one else.
    How exactly do you work that one out?

    Are you in favour of banning alcohol?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, but excessive drinking i am against. Drinking but not getting drunk beyond control or to a point where your physically sick is ok...but alcoholic intake is completely different to snorting 5 lines of cocaine or needling up with heroine. i wasnt clear about what kinds of drugs earlier...i meant harmful ones that people use recreationally...like crystal meth...im sure everyone has seen the countless reports on them? well anyone who can argue in favour of illegal drugs like that been purely recreational when they destroy lives in such an excessive way and have no benifit at all to life?

    all life is precious right? and although i am in favour of euthanasia for the long term suffers or perminantly inflicted, i dont think long term self harm, which is what drugs do can be argued in favour of.

    (also alcohol in excess can be lethal, look at the woeful performances of stage and film Laurence olivier did coz he was constantly drunk or drinking, they were dreadful compared to when he was in his prime and controlling his drinking intake)
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Are you against smoking Cannabis? Alcohol is a far, far, worse drug than said Cannabis.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    depends on the type of cannabis, i mean the crap you buy in the UK doesnt have the same impact as african or jamaican grown hard stuff. if it has little to no affect on the person, like a moderate drink of alcohol, i dont see a harm...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    No, but excessive drinking i am against. Drinking but not getting drunk beyond control or to a point where your physically sick is ok...but alcoholic intake is completely different to snorting 5 lines of cocaine or needling up with heroine. i wasnt clear about what kinds of drugs earlier...i meant harmful ones that people use recreationally...like crystal meth...im sure everyone has seen the countless reports on them? well anyone who can argue in favour of illegal drugs like that been purely recreational when they destroy lives in such an excessive way and have no benifit at all to life?

    all life is precious right? and although i am in favour of euthanasia for the long term suffers or perminantly inflicted, i dont think long term self harm, which is what drugs do can be argued in favour of.

    (also alcohol in excess can be lethal, look at the woeful performances of stage and film Laurence olivier did coz he was constantly drunk or drinking, they were dreadful compared to when he was in his prime and controlling his drinking intake)
    How about not so dangerous (but potentially harmful) drugs such as cocaine, LSD or ecstasy? Why do you think it's wrong for someone who has made an informed choice to take said drugs for recreational purposes? Don't you believe it is my right to do anything I please with my body, so long as I'm aware of the risks?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Barely anyone who takes drugs recreationally are smart enough to know the risks!
    Cocaine, LSD and Ecstesy can all kill, hence they are infact dangerous rather then "not so dangerous"
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    subject13 wrote:
    Barely anyone who takes drugs recreationally are smart enough to know the risks!
    Cocaine, LSD and Ecstesy can all kill, hence they are infact dangerous rather then "not so dangerous"

    So can drinking mate. So can gonig out and walking down the pavement, ffs.

    More people die of alcohol poisoning each year, or of donig something daft drunk.

    As for the cannabis thing - No, shit UK pot means you just have to smoke more to get as high - doing more damage to your lungs.

    You, do not know the risks. I agree, cocaine and LSD are dangerous. But so is alcohol. And certainly is tobacco!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I'm sorry, you can talk around the issues of what makes something right and wrong but if we get into a debate that is solely about drugs and their legality then this thread is going to end up being moved. Personally I'd prefer it to stay here, and stay on track.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Right and Wrong is subjective. Trying to make it objective is a worthless matter.

    This is true and the accepted notions of right and wrong are dictated by the majority or at least the ruling power.

    Once in uni we actually disproved the notion of objectivity as even a photograph has subjectiveness to it.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Once in uni we actually disproved the notion of objectivity as even a photograph has subjectiveness to it.
    Fun times...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Barely anyone who takes drugs recreationally are smart enough to know the risks!
    Cocaine, LSD and Ecstesy can all kill, hence they are infact dangerous rather then "not so dangerous"
    Actually a know a great many people who take the above drugs and I can assure you that they're rather intelligent and in full knowledge of the risks of the said drugs.

    I'd suggest you do some in-depth research because you seem to be just repeating the usual nonsense screamed by the tabloid press.

    But, keeping in mind what Jim has said and not wanting to sidetrack the thread...

    I believe what's right or wrong largely depends on a moral compass. However there are some people who are clearly wrong even their moral compass told them otherwise, so I guess it's a combination of what the law, social consensus and common sense dictates- though any of those can occasionally be wrong.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Right and Wrong is also a very cultural thing, one thing may be right in one culture but wrong in another. It all depends on upbringing, views, situation, and so forth.

    A very subjective thing indeed.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Barely anyone who takes drugs recreationally are smart enough to know the risks!
    Cocaine, LSD and Ecstesy can all kill, hence they are infact dangerous rather then "not so dangerous"
    you realy shouldn't discuss what you know nothing about.

    i have been a recreational drug user for almost 40 years.
    fit as a butchers dog.
    big fat bank balance.
    run business.
    employ people.
    have a great family.

    rarely get even a cold.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    Barely anyone who takes drugs recreationally are smart enough to know the risks!
    "
    funny how all those 1960's authors playrights musicians artists etc ...are still going strong though innit.

    funny how queen victoria managed to reign for so long whilst using opium and cannabis ...

    the list could go on and on and on but ...jim v will tell me off so i'll shut up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    subject13 wrote:
    although in the case of drug taking, it is still wrong because, harming ones self with toxins is just as bad as harming some one else. it is one thing to take drugs to remove pain, but for recreational use its just retarded.

    It's concerning that people can actually believe that shit.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    It concerning we are not back on topic. :p It'll get moved! RIGHT AND WRONG!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    It's impossible to overdose on LSD by the way.

    I think Klintock hit the nail on the head, the only thing where there's right or wrong is where physical harm is involved, for example, it is wrong for a 20 stone man to sit on a 6 month old baby.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The only thing that is wrong is an action which interferes with someone elses liberty.

    You have as much liberty as is allowed until you use your own liberty to interfere with someone elses liberty.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    The only thing that is wrong is an action which interferes with someone elses liberty.

    You have as much liberty as is allowed until you use your own liberty to interfere with someone elses liberty.

    So... Incest is OK if both parties agree to it?
    A man indulging in Beastiality is Ok as long as it is his animal?
    A person looking at fake pictues of naked children is ok, because they are not real and a child was in no way harmed?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I kind of agree with Mat.

    Gotta define liberty though.

    How about - 100% control of your life and property 100% of the time, and 0% control of other peoples life and property.
    So... Incest is OK if both parties agree to it?

    Yup.
    A man indulging in Beastiality is Ok as long as it is his animal?

    Providing the animal consents, sure, why not?
    A person looking at fake pictues of naked children is ok, because they are not real and a child was in no way harmed?

    Looks like it.

    The reason I choose physical harm as the top priority is that after we go beyond the realm of what we can prove we are into the area of using force on people merely to impose our prejudices/opinions on them. (Because there are plenty of idiots who are so far removed from taking responsibility for their own feelings and actions who think that words cause pain or suffering in themselves.)

    To take the classic "shooting a gun randomly" example. I take a gun and fire it randomly in all directions. Some people would want to make this a crime in itself, with no need for anyone to be harmed, which is ridiculous. I would let anyone who wanted to do this be allowed, with the proviso that if they did hurt anyone tonight they would be hung in the morning.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So... Incest is OK if both parties agree to it?

    If someone becomes pregant from shagging their brother the child has a greater chance of infirmities and therefore is harmed.
    A man indulging in Beastiality is Ok as long as it is his animal?

    Only if your dog gives consent.
    A person looking at fake pictues of naked children is ok, because they are not real and a child was in no way harmed?

    If they're fake it should be legal (and I think is). OK personally I would find it a bit sick, but then what I find odious and distasteful shouldn't be used to decide what is legal or illegal.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In my opinion it goes deeper than that.

    An employer who exploits workers and pays them a pittance as the company make healthy profits and he pays himself a small fortune is wrong.

    A selfish person, unwilling to help others is wrong.

    A person who attempts to dictate how others live their lives and who judge them on a set of superstitions based on a 2,000 year old story book is wrong.

    Anyone who thinks animals "belong to man" to kill for recreation or that the ecosystem is there to be pillaged without any regard for its balance is wrong.

    And furthermore, I suspect the immense majority of people indulging in the above (except, perhaps, the religious lot) know deep down they're wrong. They just don't want to admit it and try to block such thoughts out of their minds with pre-conceived excuses.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In my opinion it goes deeper than that.

    There is nothing 'deeper' and more important to human happiness than the liberty of the individual.

    All else is secondary, including the typical socialist workers/employers stuff you mentioned.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    There is nothing 'deeper' and more important to human happiness than the liberty of the individual.

    Then why in the most free society in the world, are their so many problems?

    Freedom is fine. Until a problem occurs, then so many people shout "What is the government going to do?" and look for authority and order. And exploitation.

    Some system or order is required in life.
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