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Sad or infuriating?

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Both. It's a fucking terrible state of society where this is necessary. And who says the West is the best place to live, where we have this kindof thing on our hands? It's time for change people... something HAS to be done... WHY does everyone sit back and do nothing? What is wrong with people?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    What is wrong with people?

    Nothing, bless them, it's capitalism, the state, the war on terror (excuses ad nauseum). Please don't blame people for their own actions...

    :rolleyes: ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Nothing, bless them, it's capitalism, the state, the war on terror (excuses ad nauseum). Please don't blame people for their own actions...

    :rolleyes: ;)

    Accepting someone's upbringing and environment as the main factors in how they turn out as a person is crucial to understanding problems like this.

    if you can't accept that...you just continue pushing solutions which largely add to the problem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I accept that someone's upbringing can affect their life and their values.

    Does that mean we should excuse them of anything they do in the future?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    a good idea.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I accept that someone's upbringing can affect their life and their values.

    Does that mean we should excuse them of anything they do in the future?

    understand != excuse
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Like I said Blagsta, understanding is one thing.

    Using it to mitigate attacking an ambulance is another.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in manchester they have had stabvests and even lockable ambulances for a long time ...lockable as in the passenger is locked away seperately from the crew.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in manchester they have had stabvests and even lockable ambulances for a long time ...lockable as in the passenger is locked away seperately from the crew.

    wouldn't it be better to simply restrain the passenger so that the crew could give them the necessary medical attention while on the way to the hospital?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't that assault?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I accept that someone's upbringing can affect their life and their values.

    Does that mean we should excuse them of anything they do in the future?

    No. But we're all products of our environments. You have a bad environment and it'll fuck you up in various ways. Rather than lambasting these people, it'd surely be more productive to look at the root cause - environment. People can rant all they want about "responsibility" and all the rest of it, but you're denying the reality of the human condition.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    I accept that someone's upbringing can affect their life and their values.

    Does that mean we should excuse them of anything they do in the future?

    Not really. Alot of people from bad backgrounds have gone on to be respectable members of society... unless of course you are brainwashed into being a Nazi or something by your parents.

    Alot of people from good background of gone on to be useless scummers too...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    you're denying the reality of the human condition.
    and that condition seems to be getting worse ...or never improving?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Isn't that assault?

    might be, but then again putting someone into the back of a vehicle and driving them somewhere without their permission sounds a lot like kidnapping to me... I am fuzzy on the legal details of the whole thing. Regardless of the legal issues, what I meant was more in terms of practicality.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    you're denying the reality of the human condition.

    No, I'm not denying it. I just believe that I, my colleagues and my family should be protected. Part of that is deterrence, part is imprisonment, part is trying to prevent people from being "affected" to the extent that they believe this kind of action is every acceptable.

    Question is how you achieve that last part, without also invoking the previous two. If you invoke the previous two then you accpt that people are personally responsible for their own actions, regardless of their background.

    Whilst I would love to see a utopia where everyone got on, I think we all know that is never going to be.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    might be, but then again putting someone into the back of a vehicle and driving them somewhere without their permission sounds a lot like kidnapping to me... I am fuzzy on the legal details of the whole thing. Regardless of the legal issues, what I meant was more in terms of practicality.

    If they don't want to get in, and are able to vocalise this, then the ambulance service cannot take them - is my understanding.

    Ditto, if the person can vocalise that they do not want treatment, then it is assault if you treat them...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Not really. Alot of people from bad backgrounds have gone on to be respectable members of society... unless of course you are brainwashed into being a Nazi or something by your parents.

    Alot of people from good background of gone on to be useless scummers too...

    So you're saying that your environment doesn't count? You obviously don't properly understand yourself yet, because if you did, you'd realise environment provides the foundation for your character...and this obviously applies to everyone else.

    Look at all the absolute fuck-ups you know - there's always a cause stretching way back to childhood.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If they don't want to get in, and are able to vocalise this, then the ambulance service cannot take them - is my understanding.

    Ditto, if the person can vocalise that they do not want treatment, then it is assault if you treat them...

    which is what leads me to ask; why do they need to lock ambulance doors to protect themselves from people who want treatment?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I'm not denying it. I just believe that I, my colleagues and my family should be protected. Part of that is deterrence, part is imprisonment, part is trying to prevent people from being "affected" to the extent that they believe this kind of action is every acceptable.

    Who said it was acceptable? Attacking paramedics obviously isn't acceptable - but that doesn't mean to say you can't look at social environment and recognise it as the root problem. Blaming people as "bad" individuals and calling for tougher action is short-sighted and fails utterly to address the problem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wasn't aware that they did that, I'm not sure that they do, inspite of Mr Roll's comments, because they are liable for the patient and will need to be able to offer treatment if required on route.

    I could be wrong.

    It's also worth remembering that people change their minds...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    which is what leads me to ask; why do they need to lock ambulance doors to protect themselves from people who want treatment?
    because some off the piss heads they pick up to treat for wounds etc ...go off their trollys half way through the journey to hospital and start lashing out and smashing up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Spliffie wrote:
    Attacking paramedics obviously isn't acceptable

    So how do you reinforce that message?
    Blaming people as "bad" individuals and calling for tougher action is short-sighted and fails utterly to address the problem.

    I didn't call for tougher action.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So how do you reinforce that message?



    I didn't call for tougher action.

    You can't re-inforce it - any attempt would just fall on deaf ears. changing society and people's environment is the solution, and that's the solution to more than this problem. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    because some off the piss heads they pick up to treat for wounds etc ...go off their trollys half way through the journey to hospital and start lashing out and smashing up.

    which brings me back to my origional question of; why not just strap them down instead of locking the door? Even if they do change their minds, at least they can have treatment up untill that point
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because we have lawyers over here too...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Because we have lawyers over here too...
    "the first thing we do; lets kill all the lawyers"
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "the first thing we do; lets kill all the lawyers"
    there goes our government!
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    actualy I think that was the idea behind the quote.

    it's from Shakspears, Henry VI
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    actualy I think that was the idea behind the quote.

    it's from Shakspears, Henry VI
    same as it ever was ...ruled the world over by ...killers thieves and lawyers.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Restraining a patient in an ambulance would be assault and an ambulance crew are far less likely to do that than to stop the ambulance and request the police to attend the scene.

    I've been out on the ambulances before and haven't witnessed any hostility, but if there was any threat I would rather the crew had a stab vest and abandoned a violent patient on the street than put themselves at any risk.

    Alcohol and social inequality are not valid reasons for violence against medics.
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