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if god exists

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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, you don't know, that's exactly my point. You've been told something that hasn't been proven. And incidentally, the Stephen Hawking book that "proved" a lot of this, was declared by him to be wrong in a later book, because he'd left something vital out of the equation so that it worked.

    The uncertainty principle is based on the random fluctations of matter. Something actually being there.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:

    The uncertainty principle is based on the random fluctations of matter. Something actually being there.

    Errr...no it isn't actually. Go read a book.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yeah, ok, clearly you know and I don't. Whatever, quantum fails to prove anything.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Yeah, ok, clearly you know and I don't. Whatever, quantum fails to prove anything.

    <img src='http://prerelease2.ibukdesign.co.uk/adam/pic/weva.jpg'&gt;
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    All those demanding that science cannot prove this and that should provide evidence for that, could perpahs provide proof themselves that God exists.

    Because that is something people have been claiming for thousands of years, yet nobody has been able to provide even the tiniest trace of anything resembling proof of anything.

    Just a thought, like.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just a quick point.

    Scientific proof is "that's what's happened so far" with an option to change it's mind whenever new data comes in.

    Theories must fit facts and stand up to experimentation. Quantum theory is just that, a theory, as is electron theory and relativity. Using those theories and treating them as true has enabled some useful results. Same with all the laws of physics, they are open to new facts and alteration.

    Religious proof is something quite different, as it's dependant on lack of evidence (known as faith). They are quite incompatible. To a religious mind, the fact that no one has seen faires turn the leaves brown using pixie dust is proof that they have, because faires are invisible, as it says in religious tome X.

    This is why science is much better at getting things done.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    nothing means nothing.
    nowhere for it to happen.
    no time ...so no moment for it to happen.

    no energy no matter.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Yeah, ok, clearly you know and I don't. Whatever, quantum fails to prove anything.

    Yeah, like whatever man.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I recently heard about a theory that maybe parallel Universes touched and that could create a 'big bang'. Yet to be proven, but a possibility.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    since the universe is supposidly infinite then there is an infinite ammount of possibilities. Still doesnt answer how the hell did something come from nothing.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    quantum fluctuation
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    in what? thers nothing there...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Quantum physics tells us that particles can pop in and out of existence from nothing and in fact do so all the time. Don't blame me, I didn't make it up.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Blagsta wrote:
    Go read a book.

    Which would you suggest, the Bible, Koran, other? ;):p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Quantum physics tells us that particles can pop in and out of existence from nothing and in fact do so all the time. Don't blame me, I didn't make it up.

    Quantum physics has a theory that that is what happens because nothing else known fits properly with the behaviour observed.

    And it's based on the idea and theory of electrons etc, which might not be correct in themselves.

    It's a theory built on a theory.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Quantum physics has a theory that that is what happens because nothing else known fits properly with the behaviour observed.

    And it's based on the idea and theory of electrons etc, which might not be correct in themselves.

    It's a theory built on a theory.


    its a theory, thats yet to be proven but works for a great many of systems and observations

    wonder how scanning tunnel electron microscopes work?

    the reason its theory its because we still dont know the full mathematical workings of things ie einsteins physics work on big scales, whilst quantum physics works normally at tiny scales and classical physics works in between

    we dont understand fully yet but every year or 2 we get understand slightly more

    its really hard to put into words but in terms of merging the realms of physics together, so far EM radiation has been mathematically linked to the weak nuclear force, but theres one exchange particle missing


    and as blagsta says particles can pop in and out of existence, its how space has a non perfect vacuum
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Which would you suggest, the Bible, Koran, other? ;):p

    Guess :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Some people seem to think that theories are just made up out of thin air - they aren't, they are based on observations and prior knowledge and then rigourously tested and thrown out if found lacking.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Jonny8888 wrote:
    since the universe is supposidly infinite then there is an infinite ammount of possibilities. Still doesnt answer how the hell did something come from nothing.


    strangely if i can remember correctly from learning the pros and cons of the big bang theory at university (notice how noone teaches it as 'truth')

    the universe didnt have to come from nowhere,i cant remember why, and its really complicated, even to me, but its like we can only observe our own universe, thats why its called that, however it doesnt mean theres none others, cause almost everything has a probability of happening, even a tennis ball going through a wall

    point is, is that it doesnt matter, but the idea is to gather as much evidence from observations as possible, and i trust the method of gathering observations and modelling things through maths ie physics than anything else, since it develops over time....

    may i just ask one other awkwad question - just what is mass? other than the constant of proportionality between the force and acceleration which can both be measured directly

    and also, a theory might be a theory but if its actually workable, well it can be used in most cases apart from severe exception whch is what makes it a theory ie combining quantum mechanics and relativity is very messy indeed simply because they view the universe ever so slightly differently
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    its a theory, thats yet to be proven but works for a great many of systems and observations

    Yes, but theories have been wrong befoe AND given workable solutions to problems. As an example, the early thinking on light was that it was something that came out of the eye, wrong of course but all the work on angles and trig that followed it still stood because it wasn't relevant to that part of the theory which direction light travelled in.
    wonder how scanning tunnel electron microscopes work?

    Not often, no.
    mathematical workings

    All maths is theory - based on ideas about division of perception etc. Still theory, but very, very workable theory.
    we dont understand fully yet but every year or 2 we get understand slightly more

    I think you mean ignorance gets bigger and further away and about less relevant things. ;)
    its really hard to put into words but in terms of merging the realms of physics together, so far EM radiation has been mathematically linked to the weak nuclear force, but theres one exchange particle missing

    Probably because there aren't any particles at all. Theres only one "substance", and changes occur in it due to frequency and direction. That's what relativity is going to boil down to in the end. Everything is relative to everything itself, along all properties, every type of existence.

    In order for the changes to be relative in nature, the original must be identical. And so on.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    klintock wrote:
    Yes, but theories have been wrong befoe AND given workable solutions to problems. As an example, the early thinking on light was that it was something that came out of the eye, wrong of course but all the work on angles and trig that followed it still stood because it wasn't relevant to that part of the theory which direction light travelled in.

    yes you're completly correct, however i dont say we know it all, no half decent scientist would, theres thing as we know them, but we dont know them
    All maths is theory - based on ideas about division of perception etc. Still theory, but very, very workable theory. [.quote]

    maths is insanely useful theory, especially in things like building something, or how your fridge works

    I think you mean ignorance gets bigger and further away and about less relevant things. ;)
    yes theyre only symbols, you can replace them by whatever you want, however the relationships are the important part ;)
    Probably because there aren't any particles at all. Theres only one "substance", and changes occur in it due to frequency and direction. That's what relativity is going to boil down to in the end. Everything is relative to everything itself, along all properties, every type of existence.
    exactly, scientists and mathematicians are continously(even though theres no such thing as its all quantised :p) working on a theory that explains things in terms of one main variable, with things altering its behaviour
    In order for the changes to be relative in nature, the original must be identical. And so on.
    i love these discussions too :p
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    yes theyre only symbols, you can replace them by whatever you want, however the relationships are the important part ;)

    And as the relationships are a product of human anatomy, brain function and structure, they are bound by those rules and still can't tell us what's really going on. They can tell us a lot about how our senses perceive the world though.

    i.e. we get ever more accurate at measuring the world as the average human sees it. We don't gte any nearer "reality" though, if that's a different thing, which I doubt.
    working on a theory that explains things in terms of one main variable, with things altering its behaviour

    Yes it's answer will be the reverse of the "light" solution I mentioned earlier, that it's internal to humans not external, or possibly a product of where the rubber hits the road between human perception and externality.
    i love these discussions too :p

    :thumb:
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    the more we discover the more the realisation of how little we know.
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    the more we discover the more the realisation of how little we know.

    Seeing as we cannot even prove we exist, this is a problem.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    Seeing as we cannot even prove we exist, this is a problem.
    it is a problem...the human cell fifty yearas ago was a blob ...now we have discovered it has import export controls ...manufacturing plants ...codes ....so now we have to look at the whole thing differently.
    in the 1920's ...with high powered telescopes ...it was declared that we had finaly seen all that was able to be seen ...
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    Yes, how do we prove what we are... when we are constantly evolving and changing?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Teh_Gerbil wrote:
    ... when we are constantly evolving and changing?
    well the only noticable change between me and my great grandaddy is i put different plant material in my pipe than he did ...even thats not certain.
    so wheres the big change then?
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    Teh_GerbilTeh_Gerbil Posts: 13,332 Born on Earth, Raised by The Mix
    I dunno, I just listen to them scientists on TV. They have PHD's, they must know what they speak of.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    it is a problem...the human cell fifty yearas ago was a blob ...now we have discovered it has import export controls ...manufacturing plants ...codes ....so now we have to look at the whole thing differently.
    in the 1920's ...with high powered telescopes ...it was declared that we had finaly seen all that was able to be seen ...


    no sane person would tell you we know everything though - despite what the media say ;)
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    500 years ago, religion said that the Earth was the center of the solar system and everything revolved around it. Fearing the wrath of the Inquisition, Astronomers had to recant their statements.

    43 years ago a Russian astonaut, named Yuri Gagarin, was the first man in space and visually confirmed that the sun was indeed the center of our system.

    Two thousand years ago the Greeks said there has to be atoms. They said, plainly, that if you were to have a block of an element (i.e. iron) and you cut it in half and cut a half in half, etc. , there is a point to which one cannot cut anymore. That is an atom (a-: without, not; tom, tomy: to cut; thus atom means not cut). The church denounced this theory for thousands of years.

    60 years and two months ago we proved to the world that atoms exist.
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