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ideal political system?
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
so what realy would be our best way forward and why?
i'm asking from a completely disilusioned position here.
i'm asking from a completely disilusioned position here.
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However, I beleive hte best way forward offered at the moment is under Communism or something akin to it. Obviously, like any system, TRUE Communism would be impossbile without working hard for many years to acheive it. Many being several generations. But I feel it would offer the best way forward with the current set of situations in the world, and the ever present failings of democracy in the current system as it falls apart before us.
It all down to choice really. What do you invisage a better society as? Free? Authoritarian? Benefiting the People? Or the Individual? Peaceful or War making? Accepting or Racialy Prejudiced?
i think everyone went throught their anarchist.communist stage, it's a load of wishy washy shite, works well on paper, in reality, load of fucking bollocks, the best way forward, nihilism hahahhaha
hahaha now that was funny :thumb:
course nihilism can't really be counted as a political system now can it?
Anarcho-primitivism.
The shift from hunter gatherer to agriculture created social stratification. According to some scholars society wasn't as patriarchal before agriculture either.
Let's all go live in teepees and mud huts innit.
So why do you think it's "wishy washy shite"?
Primmo's are weird. Not to mention misanthropic.
much like the society we live in. The main downfall we're having in my eyes is not of the workings of society, but the people in it are being taught the wrong attitudes and so the system breaks down from the inside. It would destroy any system in my eyes.
Also, true democracy, where everyone in the country votes for important things. Leaders would be randomly chosen from the electorate and form a council, of course with advisors, but at least then they don't have insidious populist incentives, they can focus on running the country. You'd have to be careful on who the advisors were though.
not working very well is it?
Nah its crap, but I blame the politicians.
However, if we look at it realistically, for whatever reason (perhaps coincidentally?) we have a great standard of living, are able to travel the world (if we save up our earnings) and all our essential needs (health, food, education) are catered for.
I used to love the idea of a communist system where there would be no 'you cant have this because you havent done this', and if you were hungry you could have food, and then when you were feeling good about yourself you could contribute to the community (I believe in a community orientated society, not like this anarchist free for all - but that's just me). But I just believe that's too idealistic and it breaks down at the first stages, the incentives.
Rewarding people for working seems to be working fine, we have something like 2-3% unemployment IIRC (unlike the ridiculously high rates in former communist countries). The only issue I have is that our society doesn't cater enough, we should invest more in the NHS, more in education, more in social services (but not give handouts because they *can* be counterproductive if you earn the same working 45h manual labour as sitting on your bum having your bills paid for you).
It would be interesting, however, if taxation was decentralised. If you paid some pittance income tax (1% or so) which went to the central administration authority (i.e. government) to keep the overall things in check, and local authoritys took care of the individual needs of an area. For example, in leicester the hospitals are good, with the royal infirmary and glenfield hospital, but other aspects like social welfare isn't so good, with rising rates of 'troubled' children in schools with learning disabilities due to circumstances.
But that's just my view..
seeing as only something like one tenth of the worlds population share this wonderful kind of liefstyle WE share.
the powerful one tenth seem to be accelerating their resource grabbing rather than scaling down or changing course.
the poor nations seem to be getting ever more desperate.
the balance or balances of power seem rather fragile with china sucking in more and more of everything along with the rest of asia. there obviously isn't enough of anything let alone oil to sustain all this 'growth'.
our world cannot sustain every nation having six lane highways and factories plundering the earth.
is anyone anywhere actualy coming up with new ideas ...
is anyone in control ...
does anyone have a plan ...?
for capitalism to thrive we have to be offered products to consume ...we have everything already surely?
how much more can we own or desire to own?
do we need one world government?
Personally I think that an anarchistic state based on Marxist economics would be the ideal.
The problem, as with any ideology, is that realpolitik gets involved too much.
hasn't cpaitalism sucessfyully brainwashed the western population against such ideas though ?
are we totaly conditioned to consume for the consumings sake?
You'd be better off asking Blagsta, tbh. I aren't too well-versed in it, just odds and sods I've picked up studying.
I think so, definitely.
People need money to live in this climate, and its hard to reconcile the need to earn money with the abstract idea that money is the crux of the problem.
Whilst we all live in this system we all need to be monkeys in order to survive. It's hard to extricate oneself from the system.
No. But after a long week at work I want to buy myself something nice, even if it's just a carry-out curry and a crate of beer on a Friday night, at the end of it.
blag ... suggest something?
Personally, I prefer the one man, one vote system.
Where I'm that one man.
An intrinsic part of the system, no?
At what cost? Our standard of living is reliant on screwing the developing world.
Depends what you think motivates people and on what your view of human nature is. Our society rewards people with material goods and power, which leads to greed and selfishness. There is plenty of evidence to support the argument that people act out of desires to be co-operative and contribute towards the common good as much as there is evidence to suggest that people are inherently selfish.
Hmmm...under capitalsim people do not get renumerated the full value of their labour.
Really? So why the crime, the violence, alienation, drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, misery and despair?
How many people on the sick or in short term insecure jobs?
What has this to do with the price of fish?
An idealogy that is in direct opposition to capitalism.
So if you don't work, you starve? Do you really think that people choose to be impoverished and live on benefits? Or do you maybe think that long term unemployed people might have deeper issues that prevent them from working?
How do you ensure that services are fair and even? Surely you'd then get better services in richer areas? Actually, that is what we do have...
Well duh. Who elses is it going to be?
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Foundations.pdf
is worth a read
post it again and i'll start having a browse when i get back from pulling a ceiling down that i realy must do today.
some of those former communist states have system we put in place after their collapse, and some are extremely right wing these days, like single rate income tax etc etc
But they don't, so its a non-point.
Do you think people want to be on benefits? Do you think people want to have nothing? Do you think it fulfils them?
Do you think that people aspire to living on £44.50 a week? Could you live on £44.50 a week and enjoy it?
Single-rate income tax can actually end up being fairer for those on low incomes.
It works for me. Its a pdf file, you need Acrobat Reader.
I think the kind of politicans we have today aren't essential. Representatives / leaders are needed - but they needn't be the ones who look most attractive to the voters.
That's why I believe there should be a central government in power to balance things out. The problem is that the government can and does do a crap job.
I se where you're coming from, and a change in society from a material good / selfish society would be great, but it won't happen overnight. It probably won't happen in 100 years...
I think that people should get some of their labour, proportional to how hard they've worked and how valuable their work is - but also that some should go towards the community.
There is crime, violence, alienation, drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, misery and despair in most societies with all sorts of political systems as far as I can see.
Short term jobs are still productive to society, and people on the sick can't work anyway.
I don't agree with absolute capitalism at all, as has been brought up in this thread it leads to inequality / inequity and a gross maldistribution of resources. I think with a government that can intervene but working in a capitalist society it can help correct some of the problems a capitalist society creates.
I think it's about balance, I think food should be supplied, and basic essentials. And training and motivation so people don't go into a downward spiral. But I do think that some people genuinely think they're no better off working full time manual labour than they are on jobseekers allowance. I agree that many people who are long term unemployed have deeper issues that cause difficulties, that goes without saying.
Central administrive organisation :razz:. Maybe I am an advocate of big brother? :chin: 1984 here we come!
Spose. Just was saying it to lesson the blow from any backlash
So how are they going to be elected?
A world central power you mean?
Of course it won't happen overnight, but it won't happen at all under our current economic system, which rewards greed and selfishness.
You sound like a socialist there! Unfortunately under capitalism, shareholders take a lot of the value of labour in profit.
All societies currently operate some form of capitalism.
Productive in what way? Why do you think so many people are on the sick?
A false analysis there. You cannot draw one conclusion from the other.
You're basically a Liberal then.
Or are you a socialist?
Its true that some people aren't any better off working. Instead of blaming them, how about campaigning for better wages and working conditions?
OK.
You're a state communist then?
All posts are only the opnion of the poster. Does it have to be stated all the time?
Manual jobs quite often only renumerate to the same level as benefits.
Where do you place the blame? Do you blame the government for handing out benfits, or do you blame the companies that offer such appalling wages and working conditions?
Cuba is a rather well-run state at the moment, and the Wage was just recently raised, and they are streamlining and upgrading alot of stuff...
Also, the economy is growing. Just to spite the US I think, however much they do to it. Think how good it would be if hte US WASN'T trying to constantly fuck it up.
Democracy, Liberalism, Anarchism, And Communism would all work well, if for the fact that Politicians tend to be people who take advantage of a set of circumtstances. There are a few exceptions; however; most of them end up dead as other countries hate to see an honest country giving them a bad name.
i think we've been through htis before, theoretically it's workable, in real terms, practically it's not, humans have evolved to a certain stage where we've become dependant on capatilism, or some form of capitalism