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Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Independants is brilliant. For all their subtlety they might as well have had "Who gives a shit?" written on it :D

    I wish they'd shut the fuck up about it, there are far more important things going on.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    That's what I was thinking... I thought we could discuss someting important, take your pick. Or discuss it all.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And there you have what I and Disillusioned have been saying for so long on the front page of The Independent.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And there you have what I and Disillusioned have been saying for so long on the front page of The Independent.

    Presume you mean this in which is quoted
    But a police spokesman said most of the increase was probably due to better reporting of incidents to the CST.

    Rob Beckley, of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said anti-Semitic crimes reported to the police had for some time been significantly higher than those recorded by CST.

    "We believe that the similarity of figures now indicates that both organisations are becoming effective in identifying and recording anti-Semitism, rather than necessarily reflecting a sudden major rise across the country," Mr Beckley said.

    So, in fact, no actual rise.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    "We believe"...

    Either way, the number is the highest since WW2 which is terrifying I think.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wonder if it's as high as racism against other groups...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    I wonder if it's as high as racism against other groups...

    Dear, it's not a competition :)

    It just happens that Disillusioned's and my claims have been bagatelised when it's now printed in black on white.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, I'm genuinly wondering. It is similar, or higher, or lower. Is there a reason we should care more about this apparent rise in racism against Jews. Is that reason because there's now disproportionatly more than against any other race group, or because there was a holocaust?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lukesh wrote:
    they still won't give a shit.

    I don't expect them too.
    On the other hand most of these people are not someones who'd I'd want to associate with on a private matter.

    And yes, I do have friends who are socialist. And yes, I do have friends who don't agree with Israel (none of them are vandals though).
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lukesh wrote:
    it is wrong to be racist against any group and thats including jews. fiend you're just showing how racist anti jewish you really are.
    Shut up.

    Does anyone actually know somewhere we can find a comparison?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    No, I'm genuinly wondering. It is similar, or higher, or lower. Is there a reason we should care more about this apparent rise in racism against Jews. Is that reason because there's now disproportionatly more than against any other race group, or because there was a holocaust?

    Because that we're human beings and make as much noise as any other group would do under similar circumstances.

    Because our great-grandparents faced the Kozaks. Because our grandparents faced Nazism. Because our parents faced Communism. Because we apparently won't be the first generation not to face some sort of opposition.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So, what you're saying is, because you're jewish, you're allowed to bitch and moan about it, even if (and I don't actually know) you face a lot less discrimination and racism than any other group?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    So, what you're saying is, because you're jewish, you're allowed to bitch and moan about it, even if (and I don't actually know) you face a lot less discrimination and racism than any other group?

    Maybe you shut up, instead of dictating others to do so all the fucking time?
    And while you're at it learn to read?

    I JUST stated that we're making just as much noise as any other group would do under similar circumstances. What in that statement is it that you don't understand?

    Though I like your logic. See if it was true I could go on "I am Jewish, therefore I demand all the diamonds in the world". Seriously, stop dissecting everything I say just because it's me. Your not gaining anything.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    What you just stated was
    Because our great-grandparents faced the Kozaks. Because our grandparents faced Nazism. Because our parents faced Communism. Because we apparently won't be the first generation not to face some sort of opposition.

    actually...
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Just as an aside. Do feel free to derail any debate to pick up on something else that we missed... I'm off to an Engineering Graphics lecture... enjoy yourselves.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Everyone gets racism, I don't listen to people moaning about it much though, unless it was my friends :chin: it's almost like bullying in a lot of cases - people by and large have to just ignore it or solve their personal problem with it. Anyway, this is a thread about new headlines, how the hell it got onto anti-semitism etc I have no idea.

    News headlines will be news headlines, they're not trying to inform people, they're trying to sell. Gossip sells, apparently :p especially about their heir to the throne and his bit on the side.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    how the hell it got onto anti-semitism etc I have no idea.

    Because one of the things we missed according to the independent is an apparent rise in anti-semitism.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    Because one of the things we missed according to the independent is an apparent rise in anti-semitism.

    Oh :confused: haven't noticed any; but then again I'm not really bothered.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay, the Guardian covers the "anti-semitic" incidents as well.
    A total of 532 "anti-semitic incidents" - defined as malicious acts on Jewish people or property - were recorded in 2004, according to the Community Security Trust, a body that monitors levels of anti-semitism. The figure was a 42% increase on the 375 anti-semitic incidents recorded in 2003 and considerably more than the previous record of 405 in 2000.

    Among the 532 incidents, were 83 physical attacks (up 54% on the previous year), four of which were life-threatening.

    83 physical attacks against Jewish persons, 4 of which were life threatening. But no context - no evidence that people were attacked because of their ethnicity .

    It goes on to state:
    The remainder were acts of damage and desecration of property, threats, abusive behaviour and distribution of anti-semitic literature.

    Hmmmmm....... again, no actual examples.
    A CST spokeswoman said the "transfer of tensions" from the Middle East to Britain was fuelling the unprecedented levels of abuse.

    She said incidents had risen "really significantly" at the end of September 2000 with the start of the second intifada. There were 150 incidents that month - the highest monthly figure on record - and incidents had remained high since then.

    The assassination of Hamas's spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, in March 2004 had also sparked a rise in attacks, she said. In the 48 hours following his death in an Israeli missile attack, the CST recorded 54 anti-semitic incidents.

    So, the CST spokeswoman says that the situation in the Middle East is "fuelling the unprecedented rise" - how is it unprecedented?

    Anti-semitism was worse in times go by.

    Now, she gets to the nub of it:
    "We can't say who is committing these attacks, but there is clear evidence of motivation," the CST spokeswoman said. "In 124 of them there was clear anti-Zionist or anti-Israel motivation."

    So, just over a quarter of the 532 incidents can be said to have a "clear anti-Zionist or anti-Israel motivation"
    JtR wrote:
    we're human beings and make as much noise as any other group would do under similar circumstances.

    International headlines after 124 cases where there is clear "anti-semitic" or "anti-zionist" motivation......

    I suspect that may be more noise than most make.

    The CST spokeswoman appears to support the argument that zionism is the real enemy of the jews today.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lukesh wrote:
    oh god the good old shitty guardian :rolleyes:

    Yes lukesh, the Guardian.

    Now have a look at the quotes - I think you'll find the source is the CST.....

    Your point was what exactly?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    lukesh wrote:
    point is that you guys are always echoing the guardian.

    You're just wasting everyonres time....... again
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    What you just stated was



    actually...

    No that was a reasoning to why it bothers us so much to see a pattern evolving. Not to the fact that we can moan about it just because we're Jews, and others can't because they're not.

    Context.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I really dont think Fiend was trying to belittle any attacks on the Jewish population, I just think she was trying to find out how they are compared to other ethnic groups.

    Personally I've heard quite a bit about the rise in these kinds of attacks in Europe, which is concerning, and baffling.

    Its just a shame, Israel's actions relfect on all Jews, which makes even less sense than American government actions reflecting on Americans, but it happens.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No that was a reasoning to why it bothers us so much to see a pattern evolving. Not to the fact that we can moan about it just because we're Jews, and others can't because they're not.

    Context.

    Sometimes you have to move on, ignore the pattern and deal with the problems today. But I don't want an argument, I'm just saying in a general way. Anyway, perhaps you should start a new thread, because this one has gone dangerously off course. We dont want every thread to be about Jews and anti-semitism, I'm sure it gets on your nerves as much as it does everyone elses.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    bongbudda wrote:
    I really dont think Fiend was trying to belittle any attacks on the Jewish population, I just think she was trying to find out how they are compared to other ethnic groups.

    Personally I've heard quite a bit about the rise in these kinds of attacks in Europe, which is concerning, and baffling.

    Its just a shame, Israel's actions relfect on all Jews, which makes even less sense than American government actions reflecting on Americans, but it happens.


    No. She was trying to continue her ways of nitpicking everything I say just for the sake of it. Had I been stating something about people with black hair and brown eyes, then no doubt would she go against that too.
    Make a search, and you'll clarly notice it.

    Why she does it? Because I am obviously racist and am a sexist.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You're an idiot...

    So, are there any places we can find out about racist incidents against other ethnic groups?
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sometimes you have to move on, ignore the pattern and deal with the problems today. But I don't want an argument, I'm just saying in a general way. Anyway, perhaps you should start a new thread, because this one has gone dangerously off course. We dont want every thread to be about Jews and anti-semitism, I'm sure it gets on your nerves as much as it does everyone elses.

    Erm, we are discussing the problems today. To understand my and other's (obviously not on this site :rolleyes: ) reaction, you must know the past.

    + If people didn't want these threads, then they wouldn't respond to them.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Well, this thread could have been about any number of things. As I've said before, if anyone wants to discuss anything else highlighted on the Independent front page, feel free.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Fiend_85 wrote:
    You're an idiot...

    So, are there any places we can find out about racist incidents against other ethnic groups?

    No, I am not :)
    But yes if you have already judged me a racist, sexist, then idiot would just decorate my buisness card even further.

    Though if that's all you can resort to, then bring it on.
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    Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If I might try (unsuccessfully I fear) to steer the thread back to its intended subject, yes, that Independent front page is pure genius. Absolutely ace.

    In fact they should do it more often. I wish they'd come up with something like that when Saint Diana died, or when the Queen Mother passed away, or every time a little girl is killed by a paedophile and the whole of the media goes into overdrive for two weeks on the trot...
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