drug compANIES TO PULL OUT?

Former Member

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Nor can you equate an animal life to a human life.

I assume by that you mean that human life is more important. In which case you are supporting my view that by disrespecting human life, "animal rights" protesters do their cause no favours. The irony of their stance is clear for all to see...except them apparently.

Former Member

Originally posted by Kentish
You make it seem like these researchers mistreat animals for the fun of it. .

I dont think they do it for the fun of it necessarily, but the animals arent seen as living creatures capable of feeling pain or distress. They are treated as objects, used and abused. No respect whatsoever. I think that sometimes animal research is a necessary evil, but NOT on the scale that it actually happens. It would take some sadist to actually do those experiments.

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
It would take some sadist to actually do those experiments.

And I'm grateful to him because his work saves lives and relieves suffering every day.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
Stop looking at the micricosm of the issue MR and look at the longrunning ethos surrounding big pharma and other MNC sectors and their flippant presumption that they can use elected leaders against the will of the people, whatever that may be at any given moment, to obtain greater and greater latitude for their smug disregard for people and the wellbeing of society all in the name of neverending profit.

Pharma companies dont give a shit about your health or wellbeing. Your view seems to start from an assumption that even with animal testing they somehow do.

Just go look at how they managed to lobby the Bush admin in the past few years into essentially removing all product liability protections for any drug or vaccine they might wish to eventually release into the market. That despite the fact that flu vaccines themselves have been responsible for many many deaths in the US.

More often than not their "lengthy R&D testing" nowadays means a 3 week trial with all negative data duly shredded or purposely falsified to gain license approval for mass consumption.

You put your faith in the wrong people if you believe they care any more for you than they do for a labrat.

i think your stating the obvious ...of course there in it for the money.
so are the thousands of people who's mortgages etc get paid.
and a little spin off on the side ...is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!

Former Member

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Nor, as it goes do you have to believe that accepting animal torture is the same as respect for human life.

That's not what I said. And I think you know that.

Property damage and arson are not violent acts then?

I'd call them violent acts. Maybe you disagree.

Former Member

That isnt really true, Kentish. Just good groupthink PR sold to a gullible public despite many clear examples of just how effort is truly put into to verifying the safety and longterm effects of drugs in their rush to get them onto the market.

Your view is simply evidence of the efficacy of decades of entrenched PR and big advertising aimed at establishing a commonly accepted public ethos of trust.

Former Member

is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!

And more often than is widely reported we get countless deaths and other debilitating effects against which theses companies have duly shielded themselves from accountability and prosecution thanks to their willing political puppets.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
And more often than is widely reported we get countless deaths and other debilitating effects against which theses companies have duly shielded themselves from accountability and prosecution thanks to their willing political puppets.

And these things can be expected to happen. It's always a question of what we're willing to take for the greater good. Some people will ALWAYS have a bad reaction to a drug, and this can't be avoided, sometimes a mistake in the drug will cause death/debilitation. But it's whether the benefits significantly outweigh the down-side.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i think your stating the obvious ...of course there in it for the money.
so are the thousands of people who's mortgages etc get paid.
and a little spin off on the side ...is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!

Ok so torturin g animals is a fantastic way for people to get employment, and medicine is just a lucky bonus????
I can appreciate you not caring particularly about anything other than your own species, but lives are surely worth more than a job.
More money needs to go into funding alternatives, but it aint gonna happen because animals are so cheap and easy to use, just turn off those emotions and ethics dont count when its saving the pharmaceutical companies money.

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Ok so torturin g animals is a fantastic way for people to get employment, and medicine is just a lucky bonus????
I can appreciate you not caring particularly about anything other than your own species, but lives are surely worth more than a job.
More money needs to go into funding alternatives, but it aint gonna happen because animals are so cheap and easy to use, just turn off those emotions and ethics dont count when its saving the pharmaceutical companies money.

It's a little more than just a spin off really, it is the point, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth money.

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
That isnt really true, Kentish. Just good groupthink PR sold to a gullible public despite many clear examples of just how effort is truly put into to verifying the safety and longterm effects of drugs in their rush to get them onto the market.

Your view is simply evidence of the efficacy of decades of entrenched PR and big advertising aimed at establishing a commonly accepted public ethos of trust.

I'm not sure if you'd rather less animal testing or more

Do you have a point or is cynicism your only talent?

Former Member

Originally posted by Fiend_85
And these things can be expected to happen. It's always a question of what we're willing to take for the greater good. Some people will ALWAYS have a bad reaction to a drug, and this can't be avoided, sometimes a mistake in the drug will cause death/debilitation. But it's whether the benefits significantly outweigh the down-side.

Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

So?

Former Member

I'd rather more alternative testing and far longer testing periods required before any drug was allowed on the market.

Former Member

despite how evil our society is ...or because of ...you lot live the most comfortable lives ever. the best education health food entertainment etc ...all the past kings and princes of this earth could only wonder at your amazing lifestyles and all you fucking do is moan.
of course there is much that needs changing but the way some of you go on you'd think you were personaly hard done to.
clandestine ...your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do ...you are one of the supports in this evil democracy you never stop fucking moaning about.
you are one of the people who supports the bastards who are killing and robbing millions in the third world ...whilst fucking grumbling about it all ...except of course the money it brings in to you personaly.
you all take medications that have bbeen tested on animals ...you all purchase factory food and drive motors that pollute ...fine ...you all carry on fucking moaning but have some self respect ...don't purchase or rely on the products ...don't WORK AND DRAW YOUR CASH ...from a system you so loathe.

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

Actually, Thalidomide was approved because teratogenicity was not properly understood. The drug's effect on the foetus was found out through subsequent animal testing, but at the time animal tests were not thorough enough.

I agree with you that alternatives must be sought, and animal rights campaigners should lobby for them, but until a reliable alternative is available, animal testing will have to do.

Former Member

Originally posted by Fiend_85
It's a little more than just a spin off really, it is the point, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth money.

Its not just medicines though, its cleaning detergents, cosmetics, psychological experiments. Lets today test again how much shampoo can be directly applied to a rabbits eye before it goes blind. Keeping rats in cages with electic currents running through the bars to test its reactions.
Experiments to test essential medicines are only part of it.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i take it that some of you care more about the rats than the people who's jobs will go then.
valuable research and investment good bye ...for a few animals?

Oh this old rat of an argument again I see.

Now what is it with you morrocan roll...animal lives for human jobs?

It's fucking pathetic...

Are you a Socialist morrocan?

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
I'd rather more alternative testing and far longer testing periods required before any drug was allowed on the market.

Longer testing is all very well until you get an epidemic or your realise that bacteria adapt so quickly that drugs tested for long periods for safety are actually obsolete.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
despite how evil our society is ...or because of ...you lot live the most comfortable lives ever. the best education health food entertainment etc ...all the past kings and princes of this earth could only wonder at your amazing lifestyles and all you fucking do is moan.
of course there is much that needs changing but the way some of you go on you'd think you were personaly hard done to.
clandestine ...your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do ...you are one of the supports in this evil democracy you never stop fucking moaning about.
you are one of the people who supports the bastards who are killing and robbing millions in the third world ...whilst fucking grumbling about it all ...except of course the money it brings in to you personaly.
you all take medications that have bbeen tested on animals ...you all purchase factory food and drive motors that pollute ...fine ...you all carry on fucking moaning but have some self respect ...don't purchase or rely on the products ...don't WORK AND DRAW YOUR CASH ...from a system you so loathe.

Its called damage Limitation Rolly.
I will go out of my way to use products that havent been tested on animals where possible and where available.

Former Member

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Oh this old rat of an argument again I see.

Now what is it with you morrocan roll...animal lives for human jobs?

It's fucking pathetic...

Are you a Socialist morrocan?

next time your eating your deep fried tortured factory chicken remember ... jobs before animal lives ...oh yes.
i have no political affiliation.
this afternoon i had a very political time ...downt pub.
a meeting of the fuel protesters ...three of us against about 50 of them ...us three? wanting fuel tax to remain high.
difficult to stand there face to face with mountain boys who want to bring your city to a standstill and cause panic at the supermarkets.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
next time your eating your deep fried tortured factory chicken remember ...animal lives before jobs ...oh yes.

i

I go out of my way to not buy factory farmed meat either, factory farming is barbaric too.

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Its called damage Limitation Rolly.
I will go out of my way to use products that havent been tested on animals where possible and where available.

but when it comes to the crunch and your little one is ill ...the mouse gets it right?

Former Member

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

Fiend_85

So?

Says it all really

Former Member

your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do

Rolly, it sounds like youve either been hanging out with Thanatos for too long or else simply failing to recall the fact which ive repeatedly mentioned that i work for myself. I no longer work "for" the EU, I merely monitor its policies on behalf of clients (most of whom are NGO's in point of fact).

So please tone down your rant or get your facts straight. thanks.

(never thought he would find himself at loggerheads with Rolly of all people).

Former Member

Originally posted by Kentish
Longer testing is all very well until you get an epidemic or your realise that bacteria adapt so quickly that drugs tested for long periods for safety are actually obsolete.

...and who told you that one Kentish

Former Member

Originally posted by Clandestine
Rolly, it sounds like youve either been hanging out with Thanatos for too long or else simply failing to recall the fact which ive repeatedly mentioned that i work for myself. I no longer work "for" the EU, I merely monitor its policies on behalf of clients (most of whom are NGO's in point of fact).

So please tone down your rant or get your facts straight. thanks.

(never thought he would find himself at loggerheads with Rolly of all people).

i apologise ...i thought you were still at the heart of the machine.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i apologise ...i thought you were still at the heart of the machine.

by the way ...i think i still disagree with everything globe says ...apart from the murder topic but ...i have great respect for the man he is.
he knows i disagree with his views ...especialy on bush and the illegality of the war.

Former Member

Thanks, no harm done. Ive just had a very bad day.

Former Member

Originally posted by morrocan roll
but when it comes to the crunch and your little one is ill ...the mouse gets it right?

for essential medicine yes definitely. I dont see how I could make a difference tbh. I wish I did know.
For his /our non essential products its cruelty free as far as possible, and for food its damage limitation as I said before.