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-Belong to the Greek? No they don't. That's why they are in the British Museum.
-They were in Greece for ages before Britain was given them, y'know, as a gift? As someone said when you were complaining about Gibraltar, would you prefer it that everybody in America went back to their country of origin, just because the natives had been living there since the eleventh century?
As far as I'm concerned, the fact that they are here is a good enough reason. If anyone stole it, the Turks stole them, and then gave them to Elgin (on behalf of Britain).
Governments are not five years old. There's no such thing as "swap backs". If they want it, they can buy it. This is the same of any country with anything. The Nigerians did it with the Benin Bronzes, and the Greeks should do the same, rather than demanding them back beacuse they "belong there".
If they are going to be in a museum, surely they should be in a museum where they are accessible to the most people? If you can show me figures comparing the number of visitors to the British Museum to those in the biggest museum in Greece (is it the Acropolis Museum?), then sure, they should go back, but otherwise they shouldn't.
Oh please don't dramatise things. This was clearly and unmistakenly a pillage. What's wrong is wrong, and that's that. It's a completely different argument to Americans "giving back" the country to Native Americans and you know it.
The receiver of stolen goods is as guilty as the thief.
Would you offer to buy your DVD player from the burglar who stole it?
In that case we'd better start shipping in every major treasure and wonder of the world to London, right? If more people per year got to see the pyramids if they were relocated to Hyde Park, then what's wrong it that eh?
So is comparing a 200 year old gift to a present day mugging.
And I wouldn't have to resort to such simplistic comparisons if people didn't insist in suggesting that theft is alright so long as it's done by you or your country.
Which is exactly what it all boils down to.
It was a gift, from the Turks to the British.
"This was clearly and unmistenly a pillage". And you tell me I'm being melodramatic?
And then you did it again. We are not randomly moving a collection of 500ft (a wild estimate) building halfway across the country. They have been here since 1799/1810 (depending on which source you believe).
You apparently feel very strongly about something which has nothing to do with you. The tone of most of this thread has been "well it doesn't really bother me, but I suppose they should stay here. " Or perhaps this is just another oppurtunity to complain about Britain priding itself on things that didn't belong to Britain a thousand years ago.
I'd be grateful if you could point out some of the harder points which are being ignored. All I've seen so far is "the British are assholes", "it was stolen by the big bad Turks from the poor little Greeks" and "they were here first!"
As for the points, it's that yes they were stolen by the Ottoman Empire and that makes selling not valid; as me and Alladin have said.
Second, it's not like simply taking a statue, they are parts of the Parthenon that were sawed off. The Parthenon isn't complete, the marbles aren't complete; and the rest of each still exist.
Third, why would the smog or anything destroy these, while the rest of the Parthenon is still fine?
Firstly, I'm not taking it personally. As I said, it's not of great importance to me. If anything, I wonder why Aladdin and to a lesser extent, yourself, even though you are actually Greek, feel so strongly about it.
Secondly, I was exaggerating when I made up those quotes but Aladdin has made it quite clear that exaggerating for the sole purpose of making a point is OK.
Fair enough, it's a part of the Parthenon. but it was taken fairly. In the past, not now, things were different. If you conquered somewhere, you were allowed to reap the benefits of doing so. One of the things that the Turks did was given Elgin these Marbles. So I still don't understand what's wrong with it them being here. Yes, they were taken illegally, but so was everything in any place which was conquered, ever.
Times change. That's all it boils down to.
Yes I understand your logic. Does this mean therefore that anything taken from Aquitaine should be returned to the English as it was originally an English province and the French even to this day have no right after they invaded it to sell anything from those lands?
If an invading country never really owns the land they succesfully capture then we better start going fucking haywire with this returns policy.
Maybe we should demand the return of absolutely anything originating from North America? After all it isn't the US governments right to sell anything because the land was originally "stolen" from the Native Americans?
Maybe I should send back my fucking boomerang? After all it wasn't the white Australians wood to sell, because they stole the tree, and the rest of Australia from the aborigines?
What about everything sold in Northern Ireland? Maybe we should give that back because it wasn't ours to sell when we "stole" Northern Ireland 500 years ago from the native Irish?
I could go on.
I don't really feel that strongly about it, I was just answering to some points and got... enrolled? (Is that the right word?)
I don't know details about these, I can't say. The rest of what you said is exaggeration. A boomerang is not unique.
edit: here is the source I was a little off
But you've never brought up the issue of them being unique have you? Your argument has only ever been that we should return them because it wasn't the Turks to sell us.
Are you changing your story now? Maybe you'd like to change your argument to the fact that they're unique? Which is it?
that what you're talking about?
Ok so let pretend my boomerang was custom made and is a one off. Analogy stands.
not really, not if you believe the link that I posted.
I can see your point though mate. Rights of conquest and all that.
It doesn't matter who invented it. The point is the boomerang is made from something "stolen" from the aborigines.
Lol, what would American/Australian museums have apart from Aborginial/Native American stuff?
The marbles should stay here.
Aladdin, what about all that fish in British waters being stolen by the Spanish?
Fiend_85,
Fish 'n Chips -- aren't they national pride? I mean they're a pretty British thing...Due to declining fish stocks (thanks mainly to the Spanish) we're running out of cod/haddock...
I cannot understand why people are so eager to hang on to them, what benefit to the UK is there in having them. Are people suggesting that the only reason why someone would visit the British Museum is to see the Marbles?
Or are you worries about the precedence this sets?
Surely some form of agreement could be ratified - pehaps the "suggestion" that they are being "loaned" back to Greece on a permanent basis...?
Hell, why not just give them to Spain? That way neither of us would have them
or we could just get pissed and have a good time instead of arguing about things that have feck all meaning to me, whether they be in greece or the UK
Better the marbles than Gibraltar I suppose...
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