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It's not about that. It's simply about being able to get your salary, without people making calculations upon whether you deserve it or not.
If someone works 50 hours a week, and doesn't have enough to to support their family, then there is indeed something wrong. And probably a lack of priorities.
Sickness, disease? What has that got to do with this whole debate?
Last, kevlar, you're whole above paragraph is a fucking joke. No one in a high paid position works 4 days a week, such few hours. On the contrary, coming home at 6 pm is considered early.
Yes but have you actually worked there? You know work, it's that thing where you go out and do something productive for your money. Golf on Saturday does not count as a six day week. :rolleyes: As I have repeatedly said, this kind of example isn't limited to the bank where I worked (and no it wasn't Barings, they went under in 1995 if you'll recall) I saw it with my own eyes and any financial section in your newspaper will give you numerous examples of incompetent executives wrecking a company and walking away with huge payouts. In fact I had a very good time, it was a nice job with nice people and it was less hard work than a supposedly lesser job like stacking shelves in Sainsbury's.
If you look closer you'd probably find that the easiest way to boost your profits is to sack people and so stop paying them wages. Shame really when usually it's the incompetent managers who put them in that position in the first place who should be sacked. We don't need that many executives doing sod all and sponging off the work of the actual productive members of staff.
You really are ignorant aren't you. Please tell me how someone who lives in say Sunderland is going to be able to sell their £40,000 house and move to London and get a house when they cost at least double that for the worst accommodation. How would they pay the mortgage on said place if they were only earning £10,000 as a cleaner? The only way to defeat unemployment is for the government to create jobs in the north.
But let me add that I want New Labour to be out of government quite badly myself. I don't appreciate a so-called socialist party embracing Thatcher or killing tens of thousands of innocents in the name of special relationships and oil wells.
I don't agree with really massive wages paid to well-performing CEOs although I hear what you're saying. But they should still be taxed in accordance with their immense wealth, and for the bigger benefit of the country.
I have to agree with real Tories do corruption so much better - wonder why?
Awww does that mean only one Merc instead of two. :rolleyes:
How high is high? £50,000? £100k? £200k? I have no problem with people being paid such figures if they do their jobs well just so long as they don't mind contributing to the economy that allowed them the chance to get that job through taxation.
I didn't say that my friends's fathers played Golf on a Saturday, I said that they worked. Another 8 hour shift.
I don't really count the Sun as a newspaper, but at least you-re making an effort. I've never seen these examples of so-called incompetance in the newspapers that I read. All I've ever seen is well written articles on why particular strategies didn't work when applied to specific companies and industries.
Answering phones in a bank isn't a City job. You can answer phones at the hairdressers. Your job isn't regarded any higher, just because the people you worked for wore nicer suits.
Are you reading a book of Socialist cliches? People get sacked because they aren't good enough, or because they are surplus to requirements. People are rarely sacked simply to nudge profits up slightly.
By the way, I really love this thing you're doing of repeating everything I say. It's like being in the playground all over again. I thought you said that you were 18, not 8.
Which is clearly why London has the greatest mix of people of any city in the UK. Plenty of people move to London, irrespective of expensive housing. Their subsequent whinging about house prices leads you to things like your hair-brained scheme to pave over the countryside to house everyone.
No Jacq I think it's your posts that are a fucking joke. I know what I saw when I was working in the City, I know how the system in this country works a bloody sight better than you. It's corrupt, it's self-serving and mercenary just like the Thatcher government that created it. Yes, in this country getting home at 6 is early and do you know why Jacq? Because Thatcher gave rich people in this country selfish and unnecessary tax cuts and out whole public infrastructure went to the dogs unlike our trains which don't go anywhere. There are people earning minimum wage and they work 12 hours constantly, not lunch break, no perks and do you know why? Because they need to in order to be able to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table so just go and get a fucking clue won't you. When you're ready to behave like an adult and post something that doesn't include pointless insults in an attempt to disguise the fact you don't have a case please feel free to post here again.
While I'll give you the credit of knowing more about how the system in your country works, than what I do. I won't agree with anything else in that post.
Ready to behave like an adult? Why don't you start proving that you are one, instead of coming with extremly exaggerated comments, which have no basis in reality.
Know people of both sides of the scale, and I can say that in most cases the people got what they gave. Invest your time, mind and effort, you'll usually get something fitting to what you're capeable of. What you set for yourself, and not what is randomly and given. And not only that, expected to be given, without any work to get it.
I'd appericiate it, if you left the mods to decide whether or not I were allowed to post on the boards. So far, they haven't minded. Why should you?
Btw, your style of passing comments connected to the menstrual cycle when I reply with something you don't like, and acting like Gods greatest gift to humanity since Jesus, has been and is continuously seen on these boards. Leave one poster to take that role upon his shoulders. Enough seeing one jerk. Don't need to see you adopting that style as well.
But it is. If you have a very high salary then you have enough to be able to contribute more to taxation than those on lower salaries. It's about contributing to society to make it a suitable and comfortable place for everyone to live in.
And no it is not lack of priorities, it is the fact people still work for the minimum wage. A family friend - a couple - one is a teacher and the other a bus driver. They both work full-time and he does over over-time and he only gets a few hundred a week. They have two young children to support. They work damn hard, how can their priorities not be right?
This debate stemmed from the point that people are leading unhealthy lifestyles and making themselves ill from poor diet because they don't have enough money, so I think it does have something to do with it. Many people still have disgustingly low quality of life and regardless of what many people assume it's not because they are lazy it's because of inequality that is with them from the start of their lives and hinders them in the processes that other breeze through. The sysytem is corrupt and unfair.
I'm not denying some people are lazy, but it isn't that easy to get a job especially if you lack qualifications and have a certain postcode, manual jobs have decreased so many people have found themselves to be unable to do anything else.
You do actually have a point. Even with qualifications, unless you live in massive cities it is VERY hard to find a job.
Then I'd appreciate it if you didn't just trade insults with me then. I try to deal with these things without the need to get personal and I'd like the same from you please.
God I wasn't referring to you being hormonal or anything. You said the word period - to me the word period is a woman's menstrual cycle, not a full stop which is what you meant. I don't act like God's greatest gift to humanity since Jesus, if you take my posts that way I apologise. I like to explain my points and I believe in what I write or I wouldn't bother replying to these posts.
Oh please. :rolleyes: You're the one who insulted me. I don't claim people are ignorant, I claim the stereotypes that were perpetuated earlier in this thread were ignorant. Forgive me if I get a bit pissed off when some person off the net who has never met me decides to say I don't work hard and generally adopts a patronising and arrogant demeanour.
For goodness sake! Nobody believes that rubbish about going to the right school anymore. Plenty of people are successful, irrespective of whether they go to Public School or State School. That's just a lame excuse made up by people who haven't achieved anything in their life.
Because it adds a stigma to being on benefits and is embarassing for the claimant who, through no fault of their own in most cases, is on the dole. Plus it's a hassle for supermarkets when they can just deal in money also it doesn't help these people to work out their own family budgets so when they do re-enter the workplace they could be thrown by having money instead of vouchers. If the government proposed to do something similar where it would affect you, you'd say it was the nanny state gone mad so why impose it on others when you wouldn't accept it yourself?
I don't mean the named schools. I mean a bad school in practical terms, it gets lower GCSE/A-level results, it has more disruptive pupils, it has bad teachers - no matter how hard a child works to improve their lot those factors are a hinderance on how far they can go...
...and if no-one believes that the school you go to doesn't make a difference anymore why are the numbers of kids going to private school increasing year on year?
That's bollocks.
There is a huge difference. Like Kevlar said there are 'bad' schools, usually in inner-city areas. These schools have large numbers of disruptive pupils because most of them have parents who don't care and don't buy them everything under the sun - such pupils annoy the teachers who are already pissed off at their stupid amounts of unnecessary admin work, wages and the fact the school gets no funding - so some give up. The facilities are often shoddy because there is no money for repairs and pupils ruin it as do the local vandals. Those who want to work have their lessons disrupted by other pupils or choose not to work because they simply want to blend in. And in a school where violence is the way you need to blend in.
There is a huge difference in opportunities and background; some children don't stand a chance. It's their background, parents, socio-economic status, norms and where they are that bind them. For a lot of people they see no means to break free.
My mum teaches young children in inner-city areas, she has taught at the school in my city for those 'terror' children - the ones who get banned from cities. She has taught six year olds that have been through and seen more horrifying things that you and most people ever will. To say that such children could just get on with things, chin up and achieve high is unrealistic.
That's why we need more wealth to be redistributed in society.
Bull!
Completely and utterly bullshit!
My mom is a daughter of immigrants, her dad worked his ass off carving diamonds (at that time, it was only posh, if you actually owned the diamonds), and her mom stayed at home keeping the house.
They did not have excessive money at all. But the money they did had was spent on education. My grandparents raised my mom and her two brothers with a lot of financial restrictions, but for school they'd never say no.
My mom got sent to a private school, which at the time was reserved to the creme de la creme. Told me that they got sent to buy books, and a daughter of a lawyer said that they couldn't afford it, while my mom was surprised as she had never heard her parents say such stuff regarding school.
They sent her and my uncles through uni. One of them now holding a ph.d. with several books behind him, and even got sent to work with a department in Cambridge for a long while. The other being a national leader in a government service, and my mom with the "lowest" rank of the three, holding to BA's.
Of all, that has definitely showed me that it's all down to priorities. Today where people have so many more choices, no one should spite out bullshit about being lockes in a position, at the time it was a hundred times worse than today.
That's if you can get a job or a job that pays well...
I'm sure some people could work harder, but if they did and could reap such benefits then why don't they?
Obviously something is holding people back and it's not just laziness, it's to do with how unless you're from a more financially-abled background you have less opportunity and in some cases dramatically less.
I'm not saying everyone who is on low-income or benefits has some sob story as to why they are in their situation, I'm sure some are lazy and/or crooked. But the fact is such people exist at every layer of society and it is those at the top who control and allow such exploitation and inequality.
People are not equal. Everyone goes on and on and on about how unique they are, how different they are from the crowd, yet so many want equality. Every step you have taken, has led you to somewhere. Every step I have taken has led me to somewhere. We are in different places, been through different things, yet you say we should be equal?
How can that become possible?
To be honest, this discussion has only led me to believe that too many people wont own up and take responsibility for their own actions.
No it's never going to be completely equal - this is the human race - we can't be too unrealistic. But I do believe human beings should be viewed initially as equals.
Just for things to be a little fairer, so more people can lead better lives, is that too much to ask for?
No one is denying anyone anything. Just trying to explain, that at least in the country I live in, taxes are exxagerated to the maximum, and that the fact that some people actually choose to live on benefits instead of working, shows that raising them won't be the solution.
Jacq while that's a good story and good for your family that's not the issue. Suppose your grandparents hadn't been able to afford to send your mum and uncles to school - say the diamond price had crashed, that would have been an event your family had no control over but your grandparents would have lost their income and your mum and uncles wouldn't have gone to the private school. We know that they went on to achieve a lot but had that happened it's just as likely your uncles and mum would be doing a low paid manual job like stacking shelves or something. They had the potential they had brought out of them by good schooling had events happened differently so would your family's circumstances. That would have been something your family had no control over and could not be blamed for but your lives would be so much different if it had.
Events can affect anyone, lots of people in this country who are on benefits had relatives employed in the old steelworks and coalmines and when they closed there were no other jobs for them to get in these towns that were wholly reliant on the local steelworks or coalmine and so you have huge unemployment. The people made unemployed did nothing wrong but they suffer because of events and these events can affect anyone.
Exactly. The employment sector has changed drastically over the last 30 years or so. Many people didn't have the right qualifications or skills to cope with the shift.
Cause as a whole, you'll often see how families with certain agendas often have their kids going in a certain direction.
Yes, but it's often the background and events that happen to that family that shape their agendas.
And sadly, some parents have no agenda for their children, they just don't care. So obviously it's going to be even harder for them.
Yeah but think of it like releasing balloons into the air - it's a lot easier for a balloon filled with certain gases to go faster and higher into the air - these are the benefits of love and attention, stable home, good education etc. Similarly some balloons can have different weights tying them down - these are a bad education, apathetic parents and bad events generally. Everyone's going in the same direction just events determine how far we go.
Though I'd rather refer to human beings as lollipops.
Im right- you *do* live on anotehr planet. One backbencher takes cash for questions, so the Tories are rottent o the core. How about Mandelson, who was a front-bencher who took bribes TWICE, how about Blair whos taken bribes as well?
But that is not the point.
Why do you begrudge people earning high salaries so much? Why should they be forced to give away 80% of their earnings, as you seem to want to demand. You do a high-pressure job, you get high-pressure perks. My only complaint with "fat cat" salaries is failure rewards- it flies in the face of free market ethics- but if they were success rewards whats the rpoblem? If you are boss of a company making £200million profit a year, why are you not entitled to a decent share of those profits?
And as for the argument about schools. I went to an inner-city comprehensive, I was using textbooks for A'Level that were 15 years old. I come from a working class background. But crucially I worked at school and, would you believe it, Im at Durham University reading Law. The opportunities are there for anyone who wants them, if they choose to doss about in class instead then that is no-ones problem but their own. It might be easier at private school, with better resources, but if you work hard enough and are intelligent enough you will do well regardless. Which is how it should be.
Well, I'm glad to see this debate has lost a bit of its heat!
There is nothing wrong with being passionate about the ideas being discussed but PLEASE...... keep your personal opinions of other board users out of it!!! If your arguments can't stand up without attacking other peoples characters then you don't really have much to say, do you?????