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pnjsurferpoet as i have told you before the accusations and statments you make are simply bollocks, i have been to saudi Arabia and i live in the UAE (United Arab Emirates) i am muslim and know the opinions and politcal opinions which are held and personally i watch both BBC and CNN, the broadcasts which CCN bring show a very different story to what is really happening. i think it would be in your best interest for the future if you did what Clandestine advised you to do and get an education which isnt a load of biased shit!
Editted: in order to make something a little clearer to some
I think the Americans need to stay in, now that they are there.
A lot of you people expect instant success in rebuilding Iraq and restoring order.
This takes a lot of time. Took Japan 7 years to get rebuilt. I know thats a long time ago but it shows things cant really develop in a few months, well not to the extent you are saying the coalition troops should have achieved.
This coupled with the fact that they are still fighting a war. An American soldier is getting killed everyday, they need to be diligent and protect themselves but also be lenient and be open to allow Iraq's to appraoch them in the streets. This is a fine line and when they feel threatened i feel they have the right to do what they think is best to protect themselves.
I know their actions can seem a bit heavy handed but you are not there, in a hostile enviroment, always carrying with you the apprehension that the next one to approach you will be wearing a belt full of explosives.
Give them a break.
You have to mount some blame on the Iraqi people, some sections at least, they are abusing their freedom to the extremes, its essentially gone to their head. Maybe they weren't ready to be liberated, maybe they just cant handle it. or maybe it might take a while to get new systems in place, to restore order etc
Im probably going to get some leftist dogooder saying 'you cant blame the iraqis blah blah' if you feel that, well i dont have any respect for your opinion.
Please dont take some of my points only at face value. Jumping on points that you take at extreme face value may make you look oh so good and give you an ego boost but picking out single points from a whole post and then arguing that point for about 30 lines really doesnt need to be done.
Our invasion of Japan was in the context of a world war started by The Axis powers, not by ourselves. In that context and in full keeping even with the the later UN charter which we (the US) ratified, we were responding to a direct attack and violation of our sovereignty by a foreign aggressor.
No such claim can be legitimately made in the case of Iraq, where it is we who are the agressors and the invading hostile foreign expansionists.
Sure, a host of lies, spin and confusion of distinctly separate issues were cooked up and spewed upon a gullible and largely ill-informed public on a regular basis to manipulate sentiment and fear to such an extent that even now as the lies are unravelling, many (such as some here) refuse to stand up and demand a full accounting from our leaders who have abused their power for corrupt and sinister ends.
We have broken our contractual obligations as signified by our ratification of the UN charter and in so doing spurned international law in the arrogant presumption that it applies to everyone else except ourselves and those of our allies who unquestioningly follow us down this path.
The prevailing attitude makes all claims to being champions of the "rule of law" utterly hypocritical and meaningless. All that remains is the brutal alternative that might makes right and woe betied us if that thinking is not quashed before our day as top dog ends and another rises to do unto us as we have presumed to do unto others.
You can bet those of my countrymen so ready to deride the UN and defend our govt's mideeds at this time under the pretext of "patriotism" would be the first to cry out for respect of our national sovereignty on that day. Sadly for them the bed would have long been made and our only recourse would be to lay in it!
We had no legitimate right to set ourselves up as the judge and jury in this case in opposition to the overwhelming consensus of world opinion however bad Saddam was. That was for the Iraqis to handle for themselves just as we once threw off the yoke of an oppressive British Empire when we were but a mere scattering of colonies. To aid the Iraqis in their own self determined regime change is one thing. to invade and dictate to them what we will allow is quite another.
The fact that Iraqis are being killed daily because they fighting back against an increasingly transparent conquest rather than the "liberation" it was heralded as, only serves to highlight the illegitimacy of our continued stay. We should pull out now and put an end to Bush's warmongering before we escalate the entire regional situation into a crisis beyond all our political capacity to resolve.
If you create a mess then it's your responsability to clean it up.
The Americans have gone into another country and totally destroyed their government and normal way of life as it was for decades.
It might not have been right or fair when Saddam ruled things but people knew where they stood after all those years.
If they left now the country would be in total Chaos. The looting would be even worse and people would starting figting each other.
The American troops need to be less trigger happy and help get the country they helped blow up back on it's feet again, in the long term Iraq has more then enough supplies of oil to rebuild itself but for now it needs help.
Iraq (ex Mesopotamia) is the cradle of civilisation, its peoples span thousands of years of history and cultural development. To suggest that they have not survived devastating conflicts and civil unrest time and time again is preposterous.
Our staying there only compounds the mess we made attacking the country in the first place, its actual purpose merely to ensure we get our puppets in place so our oil companies can entrench themselves fully before the soldiers pull out. Long before then we will have incited their historic hatred of foreign occupation to make our involvement in what should and must be their decision, and their's alone to make!
If you know anything about the the history of outside powers imposing govt structures and models on situations which have neve supported them, youd realise all the bold rhetoric of Bush and co is doomed to leave Iraq divided and chaotic for generations.
All that notwithstanding, I refer back to my previous response above.
I know Japan wasnt the ideal comparison but some comparitives can be drawn from that. It emphasises why we need to rebuild and clean things up.
Bush warmongering lmao. He's started one war thats it, its not a if he did that in hast either.
If he was this dumb evil monster a lot of you people claim he is he would have bulldozed any country he wanted to after 9/11 but no he took his time he staged an opeartion against Bin Laden and co in Afghanistan.
Then you mention oil, that old chesnut eh, everytime it gets reeled out. I dont buy it. The war wasn't for oil.
Saddam was the aggressor against his people, who has also fucked us around for many many years. The Iraqi's weren't ever going to overthrow him without help.
This is all im going to say on this because, they aren't going to pull out and the war has been done, im sick of discussing the reasons for this war.
Id like an answer to this: Should Saddam be in power of the Iraqi people right now. Yes or NO. thats all i want.
You can have your say against me but im not going to respond.
Whether you wish to delude yourself to the contrary or not, both Iraq and Afghanistan were slated for invasion well before 9/11 precisely for control of the oil reserves or access (in the case of Afghanistan) to previously unreachable oil reserves. The issue is not the oil itself, its control of that oil (i.e. the determination of how much is produced, the ability to use it as an economic weapon and the control of profits derived from its sale).
All other excuses are nothing more than smokescreens made possible by the paranoid atmosphere made possible by 9/11. That you refuse to see that truth only places you squarely in line with those like pnj who choose to adopt an ends justify the means attitude.
Saddam was a bastard, no doubt about that. Neverthless that is not sufficient justification under international law to invade and conquer and dictate to another nation how they may or may govern themselves so long as they have not attacked us.
What you choose to ignore is that our leaders have systematically abused their powers and perpetrated lies for the purpose of risking the lives of our servicemen to further their own greedy agendas. To not call them on that and remove that power from them is to sanction even further abuses and ignore the "rule of law" that they so solemnly preach.
Go on and enjoy your delusions, the rest of us who demand accountability will continue until the truths are fully exposed.
Regarding jihad...it's a spiritual commitment to most Muslims except the extremists like Al Qaeda who have perverted into a death cult.
Actually people across the world not only believe it but know it to be the case little man. only blind, ill informed little bush/blair-bots like yourself pretend it isnt.
And for you to continue to try to tell Aphrodite whats what about Islam when she has already informed you that she lives in that part of the world (which you probably couldnt even find on a map let alone have any comprehension of whatsoever) identifies you clearly as a self assumed know it all with no clue of what's really happening on the global political stage.
Go play with your skateboard and come back when youve grown up and learned something more about the world than your laughable propaganda and spin.
That's the kind of remark which makes me think you aren't an American. You not only knock right wing politicians, you knock the American people. Well, your country just backed down on trying Blair and Bush or any other Americans for war crimes. You know why? We told them to or America was going to have NATO headquartered placed elsewhere. Time to appreciate who's giving your country jobs...mouth.
You go right ahead and believe whatever you like, as ive said before. It's your willful and wanton ignorance, demonstrated with every post, that I condemn. You are hardly representative of every American, just the ones who prefer to wave their flags and question nothing whilst our President and his cronies use every intimidation tactic in the book at home and abroad to hold themselves above the law.
For you to applaud that only shows that you have no respect for the law or nor for the accountability of our elected leaders. The perfect sock-puppet of Washington propaganda machine.
Although im sure youd rant and rave if a president were caught in a sex scandal like the majority of sensationalistic tabloid junkies in the country.
News Flash for you zippy, far worse crimes are being committed by Bush and co that you arent being informed of. Crimes that will leave your generation's future opportunities in doubt if you dont wake up soon and bother to find out what theyre up to.
Didn't think of sex back then.:p
Since you prefer not to investigate those, your blindness shows through with every post you make.
PNJ It's called self-depreciating humour or in simple terms being able to laugh at yourself. But I read an article in the paper a while back saying how Americans don't get humour like that - they prefer things like slapstick and Benny Hill. America really needs a show like Spitting Image or 2DTV to show them what humour and satire are. PNJ British people knock our politicians and we laugh at ourselves and I think it is one of the best qualities of this country. So don't fly off the handle when Clan actually makes a joke which is actually broadly true - most Americans, maybe not you then again maybe you, have no idea where most countries are in the world. Then again why would they when 90% of Americans don't even own a passport. And the French, for all their faults
BTW Clan - good line calling PNJ Zippy, it really suits him! I can see it now... still doubt he's seen the classic show that is Rainbow... (probably thinks its subversive
Are you a total idiot, are you illiterate as well as ignorant???
I'll put this in list form, cut it into nice small bitesize chucks for the American:
the definition is from an islamic website try clicking it, you may have you eyes opened slightly
I posted the pr piece on this site last week exactly as it was sent from Saudi Arabia. The King and all of the royals are proud of the progress they are making toward getting rid of the radical Muslim element.
As a woman, I would have thought you would have read about the deaths of girls in Saudi Arabia who were locked in their school by radical Muslim clerics...to protect their virtue...when a fire broke out and they couldn't escape. That incident shook the Saud family and Saudi Arabia. The recent attacks by Al Qaeda, were their "9/ll".
And why are you upset about the decline of the radical Muslim movement?
Here's the PR piece from Saudi Arabia. I think it's good news and justifies the war in Iraq.
STATEMENT FROM PRESS CONFERENCE AT THE
ROYAL EMBASSY OF SAUDI ARABIA
ADEL AL-JUBEIR, FOREIGN AFFAIRS ADVISOR
TO THE CROWN PRINCE
[Washington, DC] -- One month ago today, Al-Qaeda terrorists struck Riyadh homes, killing and injuring Saudis, Americans, Jordanians, Lebanese and people of other nationalities - innocent people who were living together in peace. But the real target of the bombings was the U.S./Saudi relationship. Bin Laden thought that this attack would tear apart the relationship and start what he has wanted from the very beginning - an open conflict between the United States and the Middle East. But he miscalculated.
May 12 was a turning point for Saudi Arabia. The repercussions of the bombings have galvanized our people in the war against terrorism, and have mobilized public opinion against extremism.
Al-Qaeda wants to drive Saudi Arabia back to the dark ages. We have chosen progress and modernity. And we are now fighting to protect our future.
In just 30 days, the Al-Qaeda organization that perpetrated the May 12 bombings has suffered major setbacks in Saudi Arabia. Recent anti-terrorism actions, in cooperation with U.S. authorities, have rounded up and questioned scores of suspects and arrested more than 25 individuals in connection with the Riyadh bombings.
We are also targeting those who encourage extremism and incite others to hate.
Three clerics who preached hatred and intolerance have been arrested. Hundreds of imams who have violated prohibitions against the preaching of intolerance have been removed from their positions and more than 1,000 have been suspended and referred to educational programs.
We are arresting and detaining those who constitute a potential terrorist threat:
More than 1,000 individuals have been questioned. More than 300 terrorist suspects have been arrested. And almost 100 are now awaiting trial.
We are engaging other countries to locate and extradite Al-Qaeda operatives that may be hiding in those countries.
Saudi Arabia has closed the door on terrorist financing and money laundering:
New regulations to prevent charities from giving money outside the Kingdom without strict controls and oversight have been adopted and implemented.
All charities must now abide by new banking controls and procedures.
The Kingdom has upgraded its Financial Intelligence Unit.
We are working on improving our educational system to provide our young people with a world-class education.
A national study of our school curriculum by the Ministry of Education has been accelerated. Very recently, experts from around the world were brought to Saudi Arabia to offer recommendations. We are acting on those proposals and we already have two pilot programs in Jeddah and Riyadh that, if successful, could be rolled out nationally.
We are building our long-term counter-terrorism capabilities:
A new U.S/Saudi team has been organized from across law enforcement and intelligence agencies. This team will work side-by-side to share "real time" intelligence and conduct joint operations.
Saudi Arabia is also working closely with other countries intensifying counter terrorism cooperation.
We have redeployed Special Forces to enhance security and counter-terrorism.
Al-Qaeda will find it increasingly difficult to find safe harbor inside Saudi Arabia. Every day, our television news and newspapers are broadcasting information about the investigation, posting pictures of the most wanted criminals and calling on the population to support this fight. Our religious leaders and government officials continue to condemn the terrorists and the terrorist acts in the strongest terms possible. This is no longer simply a matter of government law enforcement. Our people are angry, they want retribution, they want action, they want peace and security - and they will get it.
We admit that our country has a long way to go. But we have also come a long way. Last month, we received a massive jolt. Our people, our government and our religious establishment will not cave in to those that would do us harm. And we will not turn back the clock on the progress we have made. Concrete actions are being taken and more are coming.
__________________
I'm from the land of the free, home of the brave.
A} Ann Coulter has a book out about you. You should read it...
B} Ain't "your" country.
1. The fact that you would raise anne coulter as a credible critic of anything shows how laighably ignorant and oriented toward authoritarian fascism you are. At least we now see the kind of society you think befits the "land of the free".
Here is a woman whom the myopic, self serving and power-mad right wing have found to replace their former token female mouthpiece Phyllis Schlafly. A woman (largely disregarded as a rabid 'bot' of the privileged elite cadre by most American woman other than those duly cowed by the uninformed bible brigade) who advocates that woman should be denied the right to vote.
A further example of an Anne Coulter quote: ""McCarthyism" is the greatest Orwellian fraud of our times.." (nice revisionism there, let her go tell that to those whose lives the McCarthy gang ruined out of paranoia and abuse of power). Delusional "Bride of Rush Limbaugh" this one, without a doubt (and you make a wonderful igor).
A little background into Mad Dog Coulter for our friends on this side of the Atlantic:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7334
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/06/27/coulter/
http://www.womensinstitutes.com/anne_coulter.html
And here's an article that fits you to a tee...
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/1/kaminer-w.html
2. As much mine by right of birth and passport as yours. Perhaps more so since you obviously have no care whatsoever to how its being raped by an unaccountable bunch of elitest criminal thugs.
But you shouldnt be wasting your time here, i hear Fox News calling your name, best rush off so you don't miss your daily brainwashing! :rolleyes:
Jihad does NOT involve killing innocent civilians!
Icy Aphrodite - PNJ is saying that Bin Laden and his ilk have perverted Islamic beliefs as an excues to kill innocents.
Well mabye international law needs changing , so Free countries can overthrow tyrannical regimes like Saddams.
Or perhaps whilst we're at the process of reform, we can add in complicity charges for all those (especially those currently in power once again) who armed, financed and otherwise abetted the perpetration of the very acts they decry as heinous when it suits their political objectives.
What goes around comes around Mat, and any reform of which you speak, to be entirely legitimate, means quite a few of our own leaders needing to be dragged away in chains as well.
Furthermore, despite all the claims that "what was done in the past was done" and that "the US made a mistake in supporting Saddam in the past, sorry it won't happen again", the Bush administration continues keep and form new alliances with unspeakable monsters far worse than Saddam.
Just look at the newest best friends and allies of Dubya: President Karimov of Uzbekistan, a butcher and torturer presiding over a brutal regime that amongst other things enslaves 5 year old children to work the cotton fields, and boils people alive. See links below for further details (WARNING: graphic images of a burnt corpse on the first link):
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3943.htm
Torture and human right abuses while the US looks the other way
And the reasons why
I have no doubt that for as long as Karimov serves as a puppet to the US government Dubya will be happy to cement his alliance and friendship with this barbarian. The second Karimov turns on his master though we will hear the illiterate monkey rant about the brutal regime in Uzbekistan and the need for the generous, freedom-loving American government to liberate these poor oppressed people immediately.
http://www.ishr.org/activities/countries/georgia/hrgeorgia2002.htm
And those organisations/websites that do report such things and those who speak about them are immediately labelled liars or anti-Americans by the Republicans, "patriots" and assorted types.
Of course, having bullied the UN once again to give them another extension of immunity from international law, the Bush admin can continue to pursue its hypocritical agenda as selectively as it pleases with impunity (for now at least).
Nice to see our the true value our leaders place on the "rule of law". Puts it all into perspective for those with minds to think and eyes not blinded by unquestioning flag waving ignorance.
america are in control of kabul and nowhere else. everywhere else is as bad and in a lot of instances more dangerous and desperate than ever. america is the most powerful warlord in the land but is only interested in kabul ...from where it can maybe run the oil pipeline operation. paid for with heroin and cannabis exports.
this is what pissinthepot sees as american liberation!