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Erm...just how do you defend against a knife? Its not like the movies, you aint gonna parry the knifeman using a handy broom handle.
You want the stats? Take a look at any hospital/clinic stats..Knife wounds are statistically more fatal than gunshot wounds. Im sure MOK can shed more light on this.
The point is that he opened classroom doors, aimed, and shot at teachers. If he had a knife, he would have had to come in, a lot closer to the victim.
As you rightly point out, the classrooms were full of kids. Waving a gun at people tends to get them to retreat. A knife doesn't have the same effect, and I believe he would have been stopped earlier.
"Pick up knife, put it in mans chest" <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
The man whose chest you are pointing the knife at is going to object, don't you think?
Was responding to a specific point mate.
Overpowered? You mean like on the WTC planes?
The target might object but theres little he can do...You fight a man with a knife and you are going to get cut, badly.
So was I <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> </STRONG>
Totally different.
I don't think I need to remind you about the fact that there were at least 4 hijackers on each plane and the passengers were told that they would not be harmed. Cut yes, killed no. Certainly, the agressor would be overpowered before he had the chance to do it 18 times!
4 knifemen on each plane..how many passengers? More than an 18-1 ratio.
If I come at you with a knife with murder in mind then unless you have some kind of martial arts training(or a gun <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> ) then you are going to die.
You say the aggressor would be overpowered but that really doesnt stand up. People are selfish creatures.
Again, im not arguing that more would have been killed if hed used a knife..I was replying to a specific point which you seem to have turned into something else.
If it were not for guns, Nicole Simpson would still be humping the gigolo, and the pretty boy would still be stuffin' it in OJ's face that said pretty boy was doin' OJ's wife, drivin' OJ's car, and squanderin' OJ's money...
There are as many instances of (US) school shooters being repelled or subdued by armed confrontation as there are of mass school shootings, but that wouldn't support your prejudice, now would it.
In the infamous Lubby's shooting in Texas, one of the victims left her handgun in her car. All it takes is ONE armed and motivated person to end the moment.
You have created the "shooting gallery effect" with your "disapproval" of firearms. These are not "brave" individuals, but cowards who prey upon the defenseless. So many times, when the coward is confronted by a motivated and willing combatant, the coward will belly-flop, or run for their life.
Rosie O'Donnell has done more to endanger school children with her bullshit rhetoric than ALL of the miscreants within the US together. When I coached high school sports, I still carried my .45 sidearm, concealed, REGARDLESS of the fact that it was a felony. I would much rather be found guilty in the aftermath, than to have contributed to the slaughter of those whose safety was entrusted to me because of my willful negligence.
As the saying goes: Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six..."
Only a FOOL would believe that a knife would be less lethal than a firearm. If you are holding a gun, and I am holding a knife, and we are ten feet apart, you are going to DIE!!! Balddog has it 100% on that issue... I have been shot three times in my life, once by a .357 (stateside), and twice by AK-47's (Vn)... It does not take so much skill to kill a person with a knife, as simply motivation and commitment.
Want a lesson??? <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
You keep the flock safe (from the wolves) by stealing away with the horns and hooves from the rams, right? <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
So ironic that you people attack stealgate's view of communism because you can see that people will never change, yet you believe that you can change them by eliminating the tool from the law-abiding public. The weapon is in the heart, in the mind, and when one is willing, they WILL find the tool.
The bombs that had been constructed for Columbine would have been A HUNDRED TIMES MORE LETHAL had the two shit for brains had their act together!!!
Yes, one would think that the WTC event would have opened a few eyes... eliminating guns from the general public does NOT may you "safe", merely supports willful delusions.
btw... Jacki da Rippa... should you ever wander this direction, I'll let you "play" with some AK's, FAL's, shotguns, an' other "toys". Me thinks y'all got the requisites ta become a formidable adversary, and more testicular function than many of the "men" who are terrified of the concept of self-defense. (and lest you think otherwise, my Danish friend, that is as high a compliment as you can get from a "jarhead"... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> )
Excelent.
<IMG SRC="cool.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Expect to see me very soon, lol! Dont worry, by the age of 20, I will have my gun license! Then we can "play" together, ha ha.
I don't think so, but I take the point. </STRONG>
These two incidents aren't comparable. The hijackers took the cabin crew hostage, and had a specific goal - to get to the cockpit. They didn't use the knives to stab randomly.
The German guy was there to kill, and that is an entirely different scenario. </STRONG>
Almost certainly, but I'd stand a better chance at defending myself against a knife than a gun <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> </STRONG>
Not when death is the alternative. In which case, what was the 'specific point' that you refer to?
That was the specific point I was referring to.
Even if the incidents arent the same, they illustrate human nature. If someone is being stabbed to death 10 feet away from most people, then they wont get involved. Unless that knifeman either explains that hes going to kill everyone in the room, or gets through a good many of them, then people will not get involved. People will ALWAYS assume they will be the survivor. Most people will not risk their life for another.
No, you wouldnt have a better chance against a knife, sorry...Youd have a good chance of getting yourself cut to pieces and put through a lot more pain but youd still stand no chance.
My point is that they didnt know death was the only alternative. This german did not kill everyone in the school, the majority of them survived even though he used guns.
Taken from Previous Thanatos Thread
Could the achievements of this story have been achieved with knives?
If knives are more dangerous, why aren't they the main weapon of choice for armed forces around the world? Why were guns invented?
Have you any familiarity with a .50BMG rifle? The supposition could be made from your post that anything less lethal/shorter distance should be legal, whether knives or (other). THAT would include virtually EVERY small arm in the world, as a .50BMG most DIFINTIVELY is not a "small" arm... takes a squad of three to move and support the behemoth. Killing at 1.5 miles ain't no "small" thing... pun intended.
Since my AK-47 (or ANY firearm I own) cannot reach out and touch you at 1.5 miles, then my AK-47 should legally be allowed to be slung over my shoulder WHEREVER I choose to roam... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Astonishing that you people use the confrontation on the one WTC airliner as support for your thesis that one wielding a knife would be confronted and subdued by the masses. In three of the four airplanes, the rush was NOT made; only in the fourth and last airplane, after it was known that the other three had struck their targets - and the passengers were aware of their fate - did those passengers resist. SHEEP do nothing, clinging to their hope and conviction that they will survive because of their innate value to this world.
If you use the WTC incident to support your perspective in successful resistance to knife wielding attackers, then you must admit that in three out of four occaisions YOU WILL DIE!!! Ain't REALITY a bitch? <IMG SRC="eek.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Not only would you die, but you are definitively a FOOL! <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Ever in a fight with either? Ever kill a man with either a gun or a knife? I have with both.
Like it or not, my skill level with either are likely higher than yours. Tough break, reality: you are just going to have to deal with it, or admit that you are delusional.
Yes. Stupid people are less threatened by knives than guns. Intelligent people are not so naive.
Darwin scores another victory...
Im sorry I must have missed a post somewhere..Who said knives were more dangerous than guns?
Guns were invented so one group of soldiers could stay as far away as possible from the bunch of nutters with knives <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
PS, personally im much more worried about knives than guns. I get shot then theres a good chance I will survive. I get stabbed, that chance drops dramatically.
[ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
Congratulations.
Contrary to popular belief, not ALL Brits are fools... <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
No, all that proved was that if you sit on your arse and do NOTHING, then you will die.
Oh, and everyone died on the fourth plane too. But that wasn't the point.
As usual you missed the point and then claim that your military experience is all we need as proof.
Three planes hit becuase no-one (apparently) rushed the hijackers. In the one where they did the hijackers failed.
The reason I mentioned the snipers was that both you and Balddog claimed that knives are just as dangerous. Bullshit. A knife can't kill at 1.5 miles FFS. Knives <STRONG>have</STRONG> to be used at relatively close proximity, guns don't.
Isn't that supposed to be MY point.
Suddenly the gun becomes more dangerous than the knife...doesn't it?
They are more often fatal, thats a simple fact..Nobody has said they are more dangerous though.
Also, considering we are talking about an enclosed classroom then the distance thing is irrelevent.
I'm being slow here: what's the difference?
And where did you get the idea that knives are more fatal than guns? Don't say "ER" </STRONG>
Come on, having to come into a classroom automatically puts the aggressor in a more vulnerable position than standing in the doorway.
If someone came into your classroom at school, with a knife, and then starting stabbing the teacher, surely you would attempt to stop him?
I would, and I'd like to think that most people would too.
Perhaps you wouldn't, but thats your choice - don't generalise your attitude as one of the majority. </STRONG>
You have no idea! I'd be more confient tackling a knife-wielding maniac than one with a gun <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> </STRONG>
That's something to be proud of?
I hope I will never be in either situation, but there's not a lot I can do when faced with a gunman. If the guy has a knife, I can run, or I can attempt to disarm him. </STRONG>
I don't recall ever claining that I was either an expert marksman, or knife handler.
What's your point? </STRONG>
Stupid? Naive?
Personal insults don't win points with me buster.
As I've said countless times now, I would find it a lot easier to defend myself against a knife than against a gun.
FFS, that's one of your arguments for allowing guns on the streets for 'self-defence' - knives aren't good enough <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
In its own environment, a knife is just as dangerous as a gun. When i say a knife is often more fatal, I mean its more likely to kill you than a bullet. Its established fact, go and look on the CDC site or any other statistical injuries site. Stabbings are statistically more fatal than gunshot wounds....Guns dont work like in the movies ya know.
He came into the classroom even though he had guns..
Actually, I would try and help...Most others wouldnt though. Im afraid thats held up by todays world. People get beaten up ALL the time and people just sit by and watch..People dont intervene when its just a punch they face, you think theyll get stuck in against a man with a knife? MOST people wouldnt, theyd just sit back and hope he didnt turn on them next.
Both of which you can also do against a gun, with equal chance of success...IE, not good.
Can I ask, have you ever had to defend yourself against either?
[ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
[ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
Remember that this kid killed 14 teachers but only two of his fellow students. Theres no reason whatsoever that the students would have thought they were all gonna die and therefore they wouldnt have done anything.
There are also lots of cases where an attacker with a knife has been overpowered - I'd say it was much rarer for a gunman to be overpowered.
Point being, I reckon you'd stand a better chance when faced with a knife.
Call it an educated guess, this is all academic afterall. </STRONG>
You're splitting hairs now... </STRONG>
No, people walk on by in the streets, sure - that's established fact.
But it's all psychology - the situation of someone being mugged on in a dark alleyway is different from a frenzied attack in a full classroom. </STRONG>
Am I mistaken in thinking that guns have a greater range than knives?
Surely the range of a knife is an arm's length, a gun: much longer.
Therefore, it would be a lot easier to run away from a knife. Thankfully no, and I accept the point.
But I will say once more, I have more confidence in my ability to disarm a knife-wielding person than a gunman.
Ok....Well I have more confidence in my ability to survive being shot than stabbed after failing to defend myself against either.
You take the knifewound, ill take the gunshot and we shall have to continue to disagree.
It's easier to run from a knife Balddog.
But we've lost the topic somewhere along the lines...
I think we were saying that fewer people would have died if he had had a knife instead of a gun.
Do you still disagree with that?
Not in a school classroom <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
Do I still disagree with that??? Ive NEVER disagreed with that and ive NEVER stated such a thing..You seem to have got it into your head that thats what i was talking about when i was referring to your specific point.
Apologies <IMG SRC="smile.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
You are missing the point...
It is you who seem to dismiss knives as dangerous weapons, it is you who are categorically stating that guns are much more dangerous.. Ive merely been saying that knives can be just as dangerous in certain circumstances.
Knives are much more dangerous up close and personal, guns come into their own at range.
So you'd rather be in an up-close fight with someone carrying a gun, rather than someone carrying a knife?
At least with the knife, they have to force it into you, and you can see strikes coming and attempt to deflect them. With a gun, they only need to pull a trigger, and there is extremely little chance of deflecting the bullet travelling at speed. One good hit and it's over.
I'm not talking as an expert. I'm not a murderer; unlike some who have testified here I have never killed someone with a gun or a knife. Noone has ever attempted to kill me with a gun or a knife either, although I have been threatened with a knife by a would-be mugger. I'm almost absolutely convinced that I would have been far more concerned if threatened with a gun in the same circumstances.
I am commenting with no personal experience, however, that doesn't stop most people commenting about most things.
I'd much rather face a knife-carrying attacker than one with a gun.
And at least with a gun, you have the option of splattering brains all over the wall behind your attacker, thus ENDING the threat.
Thanks but no thanks, I'd rather keep my guns - I can fight off assholes with knives, guns and whatever else they decide to try and kill me with.