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Congratulations to all...

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
Can I just congratulate everyone on avoiding the mention of a major event in thpast week.

I am so pleased that no-one has started another gun thread with a reference to another legally held firearm being used by a pissed off man to kill 17 innocent people.

In these situations it is always worth remembering that guns are perfectly safe when handled by people with proper training. Such as people with a marksman licence.
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Quite <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>Can I just congratulate everyone on avoiding the mention of a major event in thpast week.

    I am so pleased that no-one has started another gun thread with a reference to another legally held firearm being used by a pissed off man to kill 17 innocent people.

    In these situations it is always worth remembering that guns are perfectly safe when handled by people with proper training. Such as people with a marksman licence.</STRONG>


    Well I dont know about all the Americans on this board but I have no problem with licensing someone in such a manner that their background has been guaranteed good and they have completed some form of requisite training. After that, they should be free to purchase what they want.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No gun threads unless they support your arguments eh? <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>Can I just congratulate everyone on avoiding the mention of a major event in thpast week.

    I am so pleased that no-one has started another gun thread with a reference to another legally held firearm being used by a pissed off man to kill 17 innocent people.

    In these situations it is always worth remembering that guns are perfectly safe when handled by people with proper training. Such as people with a marksman licence.</STRONG>


    Tell the truth, I really can't be arsed with another guns debate. All this incident does is show that guns are dangerous in the hands of civvies.
    Wasn't the guy an ex-student who was expelled? Killed 13 classmates and several teachers in Germany.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere:
    <STRONG>


    Tell the truth, I really can't be arsed with another guns debate. All this incident does is show that guns are dangerous in the hands of civvies.
    .</STRONG>

    Untrained and unchecked civilians perhaps.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>

    Untrained and unchecked civilians perhaps.</STRONG>

    SHUSH, no debate.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Whowhere:
    <STRONG>

    SHUSH, no debate.</STRONG>

    hey, you make your points - I'll make mine.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>Untrained and unchecked civilians perhaps.</STRONG>
    But he was a police trained marksman.

    *fails to resist temptation to get involved in gun debate*
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    If you lot keep this up then you will have no leg to stand on when Diesel starts up another gun thread..

    Its either no gun threads or everyones gun threads..You cant pick and choose.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I am not against guns on civilians. I mean, no one can take away the right of selfdefence... And if someone has a mental problem, I am sure that he would have found another way to do something outrageous.

    It's sick blaiming it all on the guns, it should be blaimed on the human being who does it. After all, a human being is in the end the one to pull the trigger.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper:
    <STRONG>

    It's sick blaiming it all on the guns, it should be blaimed on the human being who does it. After all, a human being is in the end the one to pull the trigger.</STRONG>


    ha ha ! I knew there was a reason I liked european women! Totally agree - its the hard heart that kills, not the jacketed hollow point slugs!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:

    ha ha ! I knew there was a reason I liked european women! Totally agree - its the hard heart that kills, not the jacketed hollow point slugs!

    Sorry to dissapoint you, but I know that most female here (Denmark) are put off by guns etc. As Denmark hasn't been in proper war (helping a bit outside, but thats all) since WW2, most people here are quite naive when it comes to the army and guns. I can think of many people who would want most of it banned.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>ha ha ! I knew there was a reason I liked european women! Totally agree - its the hard heart that kills, not the jacketed hollow point slugs!</STRONG>
    Well it was still his gun that stopped the teachers living.

    I agree that he had made the decision to kill those people not the gun ( <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> ), but the gun allowed him to execute his plan. It's a classic anti-gun story. I don't know how this could possibly be a case for the legalisation of handguns <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    Well it was still his gun that stopped the teachers living.

    I agree that he had made the decision to kill those people not the gun ( <IMG SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"> ), but the gun allowed him to execute his plan. It's a classic anti-gun story. I don't know how this could possibly be a case for the legalisation of handguns <IMG SRC="confused.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"></STRONG>


    not saying it is a case to legalise them only saying the gun is innocent of all wrongdoing.

    Sure it made it very easy, but so didnt an availability of fertilizer and diesel fuel make it easy to kill 168 people in Ok City. With the ease of creating things like pipe bombs, flame throwers and other killing devices - Im sure guys like this would have thought of another way to kill as many, perhaps more people.

    Banning guns will only open the door for alternative means of killing. For someone to blame only the gun is as sensible as a fat person blaming a fork for being fat.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>not saying it is a case to legalise them only saying the gun is innocent of all wrongdoing.
    </STRONG>
    It's an inanimate object, it can't be put on trial for murder. But the murderer did use a gun, and that made it very easy for him to kill his teachers.
    <STRONG>Sure it made it very easy, but so didnt an availability of fertilizer and diesel fuel make it easy to kill 168 people in Ok City. With the ease of creating things like pipe bombs, flame throwers and other killing devices - Im sure guys like this would have thought of another way to kill as many, perhaps more people.
    </STRONG>
    Hardly relevant here. The point is that he had a gun, and used it to kill 18 innocent people. And yet he was fully trained to use it responsibly.
    <STRONG>Banning guns will only open the door for alternative means of killing.
    </STRONG>
    Like? Bombs? Hardly equivalent.
    <STRONG>For someone to blame only the gun is as sensible as a fat person blaming a fork for being fat.</STRONG>
    Rubbish. If he didn't have a gun he wouldn't have been able to shoot dead 18 people. It really is that simple.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>its the hard heart that kills, not the jacketed hollow point slugs!</STRONG>

    So lets let Saddam have Nuclear weapons then? After all it'll be Saddam's hard heart doing the killing, not the weapon?

    Yeah it's heart that makes them want to kill, giving them access to weapons to do it just makes it *so* much easier.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    Rubbish. If he didn't have a gun he wouldn't have been able to shoot dead 18 people. It really is that simple.</STRONG>

    and whats to say he wouldnt have concocted a fertilizer bomb and leveled the school. "hardly relevant" doesnt cut it, homey - the last few years have demonstrated that if motivated enough to kill, the killer will use whatever means are available.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>the last few years have demonstrated that if motivated enough to kill, the killer will use whatever means are available.</STRONG>

    So then you surely must agree we must make it as difficult for them as possible?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Stracha_Khan:
    <STRONG>

    So then you surely must agree we must make it as difficult for them as possible?</STRONG>

    depends at what cost though. If youre talking a ban on the private ownership of arms, I would say no. If youre talking stringent background checks and mandated training, I'll play ball.

    My point is no matter what, a determined killer will find a way - will ALWAYS find a way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>depends at what cost though. If youre talking a ban on the private ownership of arms, I would say no. If youre talking stringent background checks and mandated training, I'll play ball.
    </STRONG>
    We know what each others' views on guns are. The point with this case is that he was a police-trained marksman. i.e. He had gone through the 'background checks' and 'madated training', yet still chose to kill. Your answer doesn't work.
    <STRONG>My point is no matter what, a determined killer will find a way - will ALWAYS find a way.</STRONG>
    So why give him one more?
    A very easy way.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>
    So why give him one more?
    A very easy way.</STRONG>

    Very simple - one psycho nut job does NOT account for the entire gun owning populace.

    Yes, we know what each others views on guns are - the debate has become all too polarized.

    YOu know why I advocate ownership - it is as valid and as reasonable as your reasons for banning everything - Dont think we'll get anywhere trying to convince each other to come to each other's side of the fence.

    I still beleive though mass murder is a LOT easier via an incendiary device as opposed to a firearm. These devices are at least in your enck of the woods, more available than firearms.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by DevilMan:
    <STRONG>Very simple - one psycho nut job does NOT account for the entire gun owning populace.
    </STRONG>
    I'm not denying that he was a 'nut job'. But they didn't know that when they taught him how to shoot, and gave him a gun. Just in the same way that you could go crazy and shoot a few people.
    <STRONG>I still beleive though mass murder is a LOT easier via an incendiary device as opposed to a firearm. These devices are at least in your enck of the woods, more available than firearms.</STRONG>
    I don't think so. Not many people know how to make a fertiliser bomb. But any fool can pull a trigger.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Also, a lot of the time the murderer is exacting revenge. It is more enjoyable for him to walk around shooting each person than to simply blow them up.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
    <STRONG>I am so pleased that no-one has started another gun thread with a reference to another legally held firearm being used by a pissed off man to kill 17 innocent people.
    </STRONG>

    Ok, did ANYONE think that this thread would not turn into a guns thread? <IMG SRC="tongue.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Kentish:
    <STRONG>Like? Bombs? Hardly equivalent.</STRONG>

    Or bladed weapons, perhaps? A good quality katana (vulgarly, "Samurai sword") can be obtained for £100 with no background checks. I know because I was at Seni, the UK's premier martial arts fair, at the NEC yesterday. Add in a sharpening kit for £20 plus a few hours solid work and you have a blade that can cut to the bone under its own weight. That's how easy it is to get a lethal bladed weapon.

    Explosives? As someone already pointed out, commonly available ingredients, when mixed in the right quantities, can be quite devastating.

    Poisons? Also not terribly hard to make. Plenty of bottles that one can buy off shelves that have "Do not swallow" stickers on them.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by MacKenZie:
    <STRONG>Or bladed weapons, perhaps? A good quality katana (vulgarly, "Samurai sword") can be obtained for £100 with no background checks. I know because I was at Seni, the UK's premier martial arts fair, at the NEC yesterday. Add in a sharpening kit for £20 plus a few hours solid work and you have a blade that can cut to the bone under its own weight. That's how easy it is to get a lethal bladed weapon.

    Explosives? As someone already pointed out, commonly available ingredients, when mixed in the right quantities, can be quite devastating.

    Poisons? Also not terribly hard to make. Plenty of bottles that one can buy off shelves that have "Do not swallow" stickers on them.</STRONG>
    Come on Mac, I didn't say there were no alternatives. I said that guns are in a league of their own. So readily available, and so easy to use. It doesn't take a genius to pull a trigger, but it does take more skill to use a knife, or make a bomb.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Okay I started this thread, so now I'm just gonna add a twopenny worth...and yes Mindless, I <STRONG>did</STRONG> know that it would start a debate.

    The reason I posted was because a fundamental argument put forward perviously was that guns are only "dangerous" in the hands of the untrained. Except in this case the person was very well trained - in fact he had several background checks and was accepted for a "marksman" licence, which aren't handed out like confetti.

    I know that we disagree about guns, but I felt that I need to emphasise that even trained people get pissed off and easy access to a simple to use killing device just means carnage.

    I've read comments about bombs and knives, and treat them with the contempt they deserve. Knives tend not to kill at distance, and in large numbers and bombs aren't used by people as an act of revenge (generally). Revenge is personal, bombs aren't and by the sounds of things this moron wanted to get teachers, not children and bombs aren't that discrimate.

    This case was about one man, and a gun. He didn't use anything else.

    I don't expect everyone else to agree with my sentiments, but if I can unravel any agrument about why guns are safe I will. I make no apologies for that.

    And I know that it was a man who pulled the trigger, and that ultimately he bears the responsibility for his own actions but he was never gonna choose to use a cucumber was he?

    No, he wanted to kill, with prejudice Guns are designed to do just that. Simple really.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    More skill to use a knife?

    Pick up knife, put it in mans chest.

    Cant get much simpler than that. You might need knife skill in a martial arts comp but against a schoolroom full of kids?

    Knives are also much more fatal than guns. Statistically much more likely to survive a small bullet smashing into you than a 6" lump of stainless.

    Of course this German bloke using a shotgun kinda invalidates that last point...those things are nasty.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>No gun threads unless they support your arguments eh? <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon"></STRONG>

    <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    I know what you mean, and yes this was started with a motive. No-one has to respond tho', just like we do with Diesel. If you don't want to comment, don't. I certainly won't be offended <IMG SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    Sometimes a comment has to be passed. Unlike Diesel tho' I just haven't linked to picture, I made a point <IMG SRC="wink.gif" border="0" ALT="icon">

    ~~~
    Edited to add:

    I know the flip side to this argument too.

    If everyone in that school had a gun, then the moron would only have got one shot off before having fire returned.

    I can understand that viewpoint. I just don't see it as a way forward.

    Have also seen your comment about knives. Kinda hard to kill 18 people with a knife. It is easier to overpower someone who is so armed...or did Todd Beamer not teach you anything?

    [ 30-04-2002: Message edited by: Man Of Kent ]
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Balddog:
    <STRONG>More skill to use a knife?

    Pick up knife, put it in mans chest.

    Cant get much simpler than that. You might need knife skill in a martial arts comp but against a schoolroom full of kids?

    Knives are also much more fatal than guns. Statistically much more likely to survive a small bullet smashing into you than a 6" lump of stainless.

    Of course this German bloke using a shotgun kinda invalidates that last point...those things are nasty.</STRONG>

    Much easier to defend against knives than a bullet.

    Just how small is a "small bullet"? I'd like to see those stats.

    Last I read he had the shotgun with him but never got round to using it?
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