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This region has a long history of the repercussions of our duplicity in dealing with them that they have not forgotten.
As for WMDs and mobile labs, indeed labs have been found, but lo and behold, still no smoking gun to justify the original claims that protmoted this action to the public.
You really do only see the surface of everything pnj. Geo-politics cannot be truly fathomed so simplistically and you would do well to learn that.
And when what emerges is only a compounded mess due to the complete misaprehension of the Washington hawks as to the histories and societal dynamics at work in the region, will you still be cheering then?
They don't even have the character to admit that this war went well...for a war in terms of casualties on both sides. The news organizations that were against the war only show the looters...nothing about the positives. I watch Fox a lot too because I'm proud the coalition gave a people the opportunity to live free. And it was in line with the war on terror...if for nothing else that Al Qaeda sees a weakness worldwide and exploits it. They already had one camp in Northern Iraq that sent someone to London in January with ricin. And I believe Saddam would have shared is knowledge and capabilities with Al Qaeda or Hezbollah.
Hans Blix has stated the Americans had no intentions of honouring the inspections process.
Fetch boy!
America has always ignored the UN when the UN has stood it in its way.
Americans have butchered millions the world over. Explain to me what sort of acts constitute "retribution." Would ethnically cleansing the American Indians constitute retribution?
The new Bush doctrine is the latest revival of imperialism and recolonization of the Middle East.
They should be scorned for ignoring the sovereignty of sovereign states.
I am not from the UK.
ROFL. . .from the same owner of the lowbrow New York Post.
Yes, by all means, send the troops into action to distract attention away from domestic problems.
GOOD
The Soviets were supposed to change the Afghan street.
ROFL you actually want to put the Bush Economic Team in charge of Iraq?
This presupposes Iraqis have been in anyway whatsoever "freed." That is not the case. America is simply installing pro-American dictators and even firing on Iraqi protestors who object. Would I turn back the clock? Absolutely. The so-called "liberation" of Iraq is not worth one dollar much less the bones of one Southern soldier.
Are you from a family of the Communist elite?
How many has Dubya murdered directly during his time as Governor of Texas, including minors and the mentally ill - does that not deserve retribution too?
Given that the Americans are responsible for most of the mess in the Middle East such as when they bankrolled both the Iraqi and Iranian forces in the Iraq/Iran war as they didn't want one or the other dominant. The Americans have always acted for their own power politics ever since the Cold War, this is just the next stage - removing all countries remotely hostile to America.
The BBC is the most impartial news media in the world, that is a widely accepted fact. War is a death march, death of soldiers and death of civilians and no amount of American flag waving will change that. Also the BBC have overstated the performance of the Coalition, remember when they said Basra had fallen when it hadn't?
I disagree, the most important thing is to uphold the principles you're supposedly fighting for - namely freedom of speech, democracy and truth and not hiding that away under the blanket banner of "be patriotic and support our troops".
Or the Americans will change it for them with the aide of a few thousand tomahawks.
Actually I would, and have all those people still alive, civilians and troops, have electricity, water and a decent infrastructure in Baghdad and the hospitals and police force working properly.
Indecisive , petty , pedantic , here are just a few words to describe you and your cowardly ilk.
Without America , Europe would still be rebuilding from WW2 , probably under communist government.
Without America , Germany itself would be a slag heap , abandoned by the Communists after WW2.
Without America , Iraq would still be under the brutal rule of one of the worst dictators in history.
I simply cannot beleive that you are defending Saddams rule , and wishing for its return. That shows a lot for your fondness of human rights and world stability.
ROFLMFAO it was America which industrialized the Soviet Union in the very first place in the 1930s. It was the government of the United States that recognized the Soviet government at the height of the Ukranian famine. It was America that saved the Soviet Union not once - but multiple times. It was America that was for decades the arsenal of Communism - supplying the Soviet Union with over a trillion dollars in foreign aid! It was America which OPPOSED the independence and secession of the Baltic States from the USSR and it was America which OPPOSED the reunification of Germany in the 1950s.
Thanks America! Where would we be without the Yankees!
Yeah , u cud have that , and a brutal mass-murderer in charge , the people living in terror and fear with no hope of freedom and with no hope that their children would lead decent lives?
Oh my god. What a load of complete bollocks.
Firstly - The thing which industrialised the USSR was Stalin and his forced relocation of peasents , brutal purges and his terror regime.
Secondly - The USSR saved itself in WW2 , they destroyed the Nazis on the Eastern Front , the Western front was mainly token.
Thirdly - the Americans never gave aid to the USSR you fool , mainly because they were having a little something called the COLD WAR at the time. Ever heard of that?
Fourthly - America NEVER opposed the reunification of Germany ( which was in the 1990s u fool) and NEVER opposed the secession of the Baltic states.
Get a history book and do some reading.
Heydrich congratulations. All of your facts are wrong. You score a 100%.
We played the major role in breaking the Soviet Union. Gobachav said "When the US talked the Europeans into arming with missles...I knew it was over...we couldn't keep up.
Ha! The REAL reason the Middle East is such a mess is because of Anglo-American imperialism. The PRIMARY reason there is such hostility in the region is because of the artificial Zionist entity created under Yankee and British pressure which continues to oppress the Palestinians and continues to threaten its neighbors with WMD, the hated corrupt dictatorships supported by the Yankees and the Jews, the establishment of hated puppet regimes such as the one in Iran that backfired creating Islamic fundamentalism and the ridiculous arbitrary borders created by the imperial powers.
ROFL who are the real cowards? Who is it that uses mercenaries like the Kurds and the Northern Alliance to fight their battles for them?
One of the primary reasons Europe was destroyed in World War 2 in the first place is because of AMERICA and the primary reason America helped Europe rebuild after the war was out of self interest to restore markets for American exports.
ROFL! Stalin WITHDREW his troops from Austria and offered to withdraw his troops from Germany and reunify the country as a neutral power. This was OPPOSED by the United States of America. It should also be pointed out that it was Winston Churchill's Great Britain which partitioned not just Poland, but the European continent itself with the Soviet Union, which it supported in a war along with America to annihilate Europe.
If it was not for America, Germany would have been reunified DECADES ago!
It was America that fought on the side of the Red Hordes of Bolshevism in the Second World War and it was the allies that surrendered half of Europe to Communist despotism.
America is installing dictators all throughout Iraq at this very moment and it was America which supported the very same dictator - Saddam Hussein - for years. The only thing in Iraq that has changed is that Iraq is now under the brutal reign of the Yankees which continue to murder Iraqi civilians in their own country.
I am defending Iraq's right to exist as a sovereign nation and scorning Yankee imperialism.
IMO Iraq is better off with an Iraqi dictator rather than an American dictator who supports the Jews.
Speaking of human rights, do remind me who it was again who killed over a millions civilians in Indochina. Who was it again which armed the Soviet Union as it raped millions of women in Europe? Who was it that enslaved millions of its own people and annihilated the native Americans? Black Hawk Down! Just who were the Black Hawks btw?
In what way did America destroy Europe? I think it was some guy called Adolf Hitler - the most evil man in history - who did that.
The American people genuinely wanted to help Europe after the war - they didnt have to , they could have managed fine without them , but they did , they GAVE Europe $15 billion after WW2. Now look whos ungrateful - France and Germany.
But this takes the biscuit -
So basically you are saying here that America should have fought for NAZI GERMANY??!! Are you insane!???
No , the person who partitioned Europe was Stalin , and Hitler - a German.
Considering what the Germans (the master race) did to Russia when they invaded , its suprising Russia didnt completly level the country.
Heydrich - you are a facist , you hate the Jews with a vigour , and obviously despise America , despite all it has done for you.
:rolleyes:
ROFL and just who were these peasants working for? Henry Ford perhaps?
EXTENT OF AID "ALMOST UNBELIEVABLE"
During the early thirties, the amount and type of "aid and comfort" to the Soviet Union was almost unbelievable. In 1930 the Ford Motor Company established the Russian motor car industry by constructing a factory "capable of turning out 140,000 cars a year." By the end of the decade the factory, at Gorki, was one of the largest in the world. Ford also provided training for the Russians in assembling automobiles "plus patent licenses, technical assistance, and advice," and "an inventory of spare parts." (Keller, East Minus West Equals Zero, pp. 208-209, 215-216). Americans also built, in the Soviet Union, the largest iron and steel works in the world; patterned after the city of Gary, Indiana. The huge steel complex, built at Maginitogorsk, was constructed by a Cleveland firm. (Ibid., pp. 209-210).
LARGEST TRACTOR FACTORY IN THE WORLD
The largest tractor factory in the world was another American contribution to Soviet technology.
"Tractors were a necessity to modernize Soviet agriculture. A Detroit engineer designed and constructed a tractor factory without parallel in any other country. The assembly works were 2,000 feet long and 650 feet wide, covering an area of thirty acres. Twenty-one American football fields would fit into just one building, with locker rooms for the players. The tractors produced were copies of the American Caterpillar Company, but there were no arrangements made for payment for use of the patent. Russia merely bought one sample and copied it. The factory was so designed that production could be adopted almost overnight to the production of another less innocuous commodity - tanks." (Ibid., p. 213).
LARGEST HYDROELECTRIC DAM IN THE WORLD
The largest hydroelectric installation and dam in the world was built at Dnieproges, Soviet Union, by Col. Hugh Cooper, famed for having built the dam at Muscle Shoals, Tennessee. "The power plant increased Russia's hydroelectric system output by six times, and produced more power than Niagara Falls." (Ibid., pp. 216-217). According to Antony Sutton:
"Two agreement with Orgametal by other American companies completed assistance in the heavy engineering field. The electrical industry had the services of International General Electric (in two agreements), the Cooper Engineering Company and RCA for the construction of long range powerful radio stations. The stuart, James and Cooke, Inc. contracts with various coal and mining trusts were supplemented by specialized assistance contracts, such as the Oglebay, Norton Company aid agreement for the iron ore mines and the Southwestern Engineering agreement in the non-ferrous industries. The chemical industry turned to Du Pont and Nitrogen Engineering for synthetic nitrogen, ammonia and nitric acid technology; to Westvaco for chlorine; and to H. Gibbs to supplement I.G. Ferben aid in the Aniline Dye Trust. This was supplemented by more specialized agreements from other countries; ball bearings from Sweden and Italy; plastics, artificial silk, and aircraft from France; and turbines and electrical industry technology from the United Kingdom.
"The penetration of this technology was complete. At least 95 percent of the industrial structure received this assistance." (Sutton, Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1917-1930, pp. 347-348).
UNASSEMBLED U.S. BATTLESHIPS GIVEN TO SOVIETS
It is difficult to over-estimate the damage to the free world by this type of trade. It was also during the thirties that the Soviet Union was "allowed to purchase unassembled U.S. battleships. Carbon copies of American battleships were assembled in the Soviet Union, according to plans drawn up by American naval architects." The latest industrial equipment used in producing ammonia was shipped by such companies as Nortrogen Engineering and Du Pont. The State Department which authorized this "peaceful trade," over-looked the factor that one of the by-products in the process of producing ammonia was "nitric acid, which is an essential ingredient in explosives." (Congressional Record, Oct. 3, 1975, pp. E5215-E5216).
LARGEST STEEL PLANT IN THE WORLD
The industrial plants built in Russia by the United States between 1929- 1932 were
"... far larger than units designed and built by the same construction firms in the rest of the world and, in addition, combining separate shops or plants for the manufacture of inputs and spare parts. The Urals-Emash combination multiplied Soviet electrical equipment manufacturing capacity by a factor of seven; the KHEMZ at Kharkov, designed by the General Electric Company, had a turbine-manufacturing capacity two and one-half greater than the main G.E. Schenectady plant; and Magnitogorsk, a replica of the U.S. Steel plant at Gary, Indiana, was the largest iron and steel plant in the world. When the Soviet claim these units are the `largest in the world' they do not exaggerate; it would of course be impolitic of them to emphasize their Western origins." (Anthony C. Sutton, Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1930-1945, Hoover Institute Press, Stanford University, 1971, p. 343).
Even if American firms were responsible for much of the design and layout of these and other enormous industrial complexes "probably one-half of the equipment installed was German." Even so, much of what was manufactured by the Germans was according to "American design on Soviet account. In quantity, American-built equipment was probably second and British third." (Ibid.).
The thirties was a time of adjustment to this massive infusion of Western Industrial might. Becoming accustomed to this tremendous windfall was not an easy task for the bulky, awkward economic programs of the communists. The challenge was to become familiar with this industrial overload and convert it, as quickly as possible, to military strength. Unashlicht, Vice President of the Revolutionary Military Soviet, stated:
"We must try to ensure that industry can as quickly as possible be adapted to serving military needs...; [therefore] it is necessary to carefully structure the Five-Year Plan for maximum co-operation and interrelationship between military and civilian industry. It is necessary to plan for duplications of technological processes and absorb foreign assistance...; such are the fundamental objectives." (Provado, no. 98, 28 Apr. 1929, as cited by Sutton, Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development, 1930-1945, p. 344).
After 1925 the Soviets began squeezing the Germans out by "withdrawing one concession after another and breaking the agreements made in the original contracts."
No country had any meaningful guarantees that Lenin would not do the same thing to them. Them most sophisticated gold mining equipment in the world was placed in the USSR by the English. After the goldfields began to produce, the English were ousted. Money from the Lena Field Gold Mine provided much of the capital to pay the Great Capitalists for building the industrial capacity of the USSR.
Eleven billion dollars of Lend-Lease goods went to aid the Soviet Union in its struggle with Germany on the eastern front. As a result, the Communists ended the war in far greater strength than when the war began. The magnitude of the problems was probably best expressed by Vice President Henry Wallace, who made no secret of his pro-Soviet bias. On July 9, 1944, he returned from Russia to announce:
"I found American flour in the Soviet Far East, American aluminum in Soviet airplane factories, American steel in trucks and railway repair shops, American machine tools in shipbuilding yards, American compressors and electrical equipment on Soviet naval vessels, American core drills in the copper mines of Central Asia, and American trucks and planes performing strategic transportation functions...." (Keller, East Minus West Equals Zero, p. 241).
Apparently you have never heard of a little something called the U.S. Export/Import Bank.
"... the United States has provided $1,033,400,000 in foreign aid and assistance to the Soviet Union from 1946 through 1974. Presumably this was done under authority other than the Foreign Assistance Act, which prohibits such aid.
"When you also consider the so-called lend-lease program - so- called because as things turned out it was neither lend nor lease but outright charity to the tune of $11 to $12 billion - and the passing over our post-World War II occupational currency production capability, the true figure of aid to the heartland of totalitarian communism would be somewhere between $30 to $40 billion. Most Americans are staggered upon learning that the USSR has been the No. 1 beneficiary of U.S. aid in this century....
"All of this certainly destroys the accepted view that the United States has an anti-communist foreign policy." (Congressional Record, Oct. 3, 1975, p. E5215).
http://autarchic.tripod.com/files/alliance.html
Stalin proposed to reunify Germany as a neutral state in 1952 you moron. He offered the west a meeting to discuss reunification and a PEACE TREATY with Germany, removal of all occupation troops and establishment of a german national army, and germany would be neutral like Switzerland
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/DasGeteilteDeutschland/JahreDesAufbausInOstUndWest/ZweiStaatenZweiWege/stalinnoten.html
In the Cold War of the 1950s and 1960s, and particularly after the West spurned Stalin's offer in 1952 of a peace treaty with a United Germany, icy confrontation marked bilateral ties.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wall/article/0,2763,196807,00.html
The U.S. was the last major power to recognize the secession of the Baltic States.
Exactly. The Americans are cowards. That is why they use proxy armies of Kurds and Tajiks to fight their enemies on the ground.
America reinstalled the despotic emirate in Kuwait. America gives the dictator of Egypt billions of dollars annually. America supports the dictatorship in Pakistan with foreign aid as well as the dictatorships in all the Gulf States which are FAR AND AWAY worse than anything in Iraq.
Just like America also supported the dictator of Somalia, Siad Biarre, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people. Just like America supported Pol Pot and Josef Stalin.
Yes, they sure did, killing hundreds of civilians in the process and maiming thousands of innocent people. For what purpose? To install a pro-American/pro-Zionist puppet state to exploit Iraq’s natural resources.
This is false. Neither France or Germany are stuck with the perpetual burden of supporting an Iraqi surrogate with billions of dollars.
France and Germany have proven their honour by standing up to the United States -unlike cowards like Aznar in Spain who capitulated to Uncle Sam in spite of the will of his own people.
By annihilating tens of thousands of European civilians with massive firebombing, by arming the Soviet Union which murdered and raped millions of civilians, by partitioning Europe with the Communist dictator of the Soviet Union.
It was not Adolf Hitler who starved to death tens of millions of Indians like the country known as Great Britain.
The Marshall Plan was nothing more than a manifestation of American Imperialism designed to secure export markets for American products.
Thank you America. Thank you for annihilating our civilians with high explosives. Thank you America for pillaging our country and stealing its technology to design your own rocket programs. France should be so thankful to Great Britain, for deserting France and running back across the English Channel, its next move being to kill hundreds of French sailors!
Nazi Germany was nothing compared to the Americans.
So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?
--- Winston Churchill, Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944
There is no comparison whatsoever to the amount of theft and rape in German occupied Russia as to what the Russians did to the Germans and the Eastern Europeans.
I am not a Fascist.
I hate America.
I hate the Jews.
G’day
The irony, do you know how many people Dubya has personally killed by his death warrant? The people are living in terror and fear, terror and fear that they have no food, no water. no law and order and no healthcare. What kind of freedom is that? That is anarchy. I will only say the Iraqis are free when they have had fair and democratic elections for their parliament of their choosing - at the moment they've swapped one dictator for another. As I have said many times how hopeful do you think Iraqis feel knowing they lack the basics of life - decent or not - that they had just a few weeks ago, and who took that away from them? Coalition tomahawks.
Some body who defends Nazi Germany , despite the concentration camps , the 20 million Russians they killed , the 10 million of their ovn people murdered , the fact that the started the biggest war in history , is suffering from some sort of delusion.
I assume that you are German , perhaps a Neo-Nazi capitalist-communist hater?
You refuse to see the truth , that America is the country standing up for our freedoms.
You refuse to agknowledge all the help America has given to Germany in the past.
That is not the issue , Adolf Hitler had nothing to do with India , he killed 40 million in Europe. Besides , India did well as a British colony.
Whilst I support most of what you have said, I need to correct one point - the US is only standing up for their own interests.
The irony I see is that a Nazi Sympathiser thinks that he has anything to offer in a discussion about freedom.
@ kevlar - GWB vs Hitler in a "who killed the most" competition? And you expect that to be taken seriously?
The other aspect is that with freedom, comes responsibility. The Iraqis need to learn to look after themselves, with the support and assistance of the US and UK forces. They should not expect the US and UK to be their police force and lay everything on for them. Unless you are encouraging the US to run a Militaristic regime...
Aid is coming in, and the engineering expertise is there to help rebuild some of the infrastructure.
Of course, had we taken the military approach in 1991, instead of making the Iraqis suffer under the "diplomatic" system of sanctions...
My point about GWB and Hitler was made to counter the view that we obviously believe leaders who have killed their civilians are undesirable - all I'm saying is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Of course, GWB isn't on the same scale as Hitler but are we saying that you have to murder over a million people before you're considered bad? A life is a life.
I'd far from encourage the US to run a militaristic regime but they are the ones who destroyed Iraqi law and order and so they have a responsibility to clean up the mess they made and not just to go "right we liberated you, you're on your own" and pull out their troops. Though the use of coalition troops in enforcing law and order is somewhat debatable given all the looting going on at the moment - all removing valuable resources which will be needed by any new Iraqi government which coalition forces are doing little about.
I support the aid and restructuring, its the least we should be doing after bombing the country to bits but you can't replace the lives of those who have died.
Or we could have just not bothered with sanctions and given Saddam Hussein no stick to beat the West with which would have made his people look to him as the problem.
Stalin put it best. One life is a tradegy, one million a statistic.
BTW I'm not defending GWB and the death penalty.
If by "law and order" you mean the Ba'ath Party's oppressive thuggish regime, then I'd agree with you.
Perhaps you would prefer a return to that?
Baghdad has been liberated less than a week and already you expect a police force and other Govt infrastructre to be inplace, thus highlighting the problem in the modern world - a lack of patientce.
I agree that some form of law and order needs to be in place, but it shouldn't be the military who provide that. Other wise you are retuening to a similar system to the one removed and how do you think the Iraqis would view that?
I totally agree, the US and UK have a responsibility. But I would argue that the Iraq citizens need to be a part of the process and that they are staring to learn this. You have to remember that until last week they were prevented from taking an active role...
Agreed. Sanctions only ever really affect the poorest in any nation.
Might seeing Saddam's palaces have further enraged the Iraqi citizens to loot?
The Americans and the Uk were the only ones upholding the UN's sanctions. They've found missles sold by France dated 2002. Russia's are dated 2000.
...and dont we find it all very ironic that most leftists who bleet on about innnocent deaths still refuse to condemn Stalin just because they view him as standing up to the Americans.
.and isnt it ironic.....:rolleyes:
What I can't believe is that I quoted bugs bunny and Winston Churchill. I had the t.v. and radio on while I typed this topic. And bugs was on t.v.
Most 'leftists' that I know condemn Stalin utterly for perverting Socialism.
Why is selling Missiles to Iraq in 2002 any worse than selling them in 1982? (When America was selling Iraq weapons.)
Churchills quote is a great one; for WW2. The irrelevance of that quote today is that 'the west' is not under imminent threat of invasion. The east is.
The fact that the Iraqis were looting is not the point - the Americans and British have a responsibility to stop the looters because the looters have/are taking valuable resources needed for the new government.
As has been said a million times PNJ Britain and America were selling missiles to Iraq throughout the 1980s and even into the 1990s. The Americans and the UK are therefore responsible for enforcing an ineffectual and cruel punishment on the Iraqi people through sanctions which they could easily have lifted without the war.
Wrong. France, Germany and Russia took money from Saddam for weapons that were in violation of the UN sanctions instead of buying the food. France didn't care because not only were they selling weapons to Iraq, the money for the oil for food program went through a Parisian bank.
Fact: the peace movement marched to keep Saddam in power. Compliance with weapons of mass destruction would not have ended his reign.
Fact: If sanctions hadn't been imposed in the first place the Iraqi people would have got their food. The fact is sanctions did not work and only drove the Iraqi people further into poverty.
Fact: I was part of the peace movement and I marched to prevent innocent people dying in an unnecessary war designed for American self-interest.
Fact: Sometimes you can be unbelievably offensive and ignorant in your mouthing off.
It was not Germany who conquered and raped Ireland for centuries.
Would you like to talk about Great Britain's concentration camps in South Africa, the tens of thousands of women and children it killed there, or the millions of Indians Great Britain starved to death? Would you like to talk about America's concentration camps, like "Oklahoma Territory?"
It is true Germany killed millions of Russians defending Europe from the Bolshevik Terror supported by Great Britain and the United States - a regime that murdered more people than any other regime in the history of the world with the exception of Mao's China and Great Britain's colonialism.
Show me where the German government murdered "10 million of its own people."
The war between Great Britain, France, and Germany was initiated by Great Britain and France declaring war on Germany.
I am not a German. I am not a Nazi. I despite capitalism and communism.
That is interesting. Why don't you tell that to the people of Romania and Bulgaria who were surrendered to Soviet tyranny by the United States. Why don't you tell that to the people of the Phillippines who were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands defending their freedom against Yankee imperialism. If you are British, why don't you tell that to the people of Ireland?
America "helped" Germany alright. It helped to murder millions of Germans in their own cities. Real me don't hit children, they bomb them from the sky! America helped the Soviet Union rape MILLIONS of Germany's women and even raped many of them itself. America literally ended the national existence of Germany for almost half a century. I suppose that is a better deal they gave to their own people in the South who they slaughtered, butchered, and pillaged at an even higher ratio.
Great Britain starved to death in artificial famines over 30 million Indians. Germany was not responsible for the enslavement of millions of Africans. It was not Germany who addicted Chinese to Herion in the process killing millions in order to financial exploit China. Tens of thousands of Boer women and children died in Britain's concentration camps in the Boer War. The war between Germany, France, and Great Britain in Europe was initiated by Great Britain and France when they declared war on Germany not the other war around.
Because they were stopped in 1940.
Certainly, because I don't defend, condone or act as an apologist for that.
Would you like to talk about the extermination camps set up by your namesake?
The defence of Europe started by Germany invading Poland then, is that right?
Again, I don't defend Stalin for the manner in which he treated his people. But then no-one here refers to themselves by the same of a mass murderer.
Except you that is.
You are right, they didn't murder 10m germans.
They murdered 10m people from outside Germany
Which war? The first or the second? Or do you subscrive to my view that there was only really one war, we just took a break to allow each side to re-arm themselves.