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When you hear they're parading British POW's on t.v.

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  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I agree that medical experts could determine very quickly upon examination whether someone has been shot at short range or in combat.

    I don't know how many images have been released. Perhaps you have seen a detailed close-up? What I have seen is a still from the Al-Jazeera footage, and there is no way anyone could suggest- let alone proof- that the men were executed from the available images... so I guess we'll have to take Blair's word for it. I have seen images of a number of dead Iraqi soldiers and you could swear some had been shot in the head at short range as well. Only I know they hadn't (or at least I really hope they hadn't).

    I'm not defending the indefensible or pretending the Iraqis would not be capable of executing soldiers. But it is not inconceivable either that we were told the British soldiers have been executed for other reasons. Think of how much we would gain in the propaganda war, and remember how many porkies we have been told in the last 8 days alone.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I wonder if you will have the same level of skepticism when it comes to Iraqi claims of atrocities.

    What was your opinion of the missile hitting the market?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Tony Blair today said the Iraqis executed two British soldiers. Is anyone here going to make the charge that the UK treats it's prisoners in this fashion!:mad: :impissed:

    I hope that their deaths are avenged! I think the Iraqis will rue the day they committed this horror! I am sure that the Royal Marines and the rest of the lads will set things right.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    And Murph's reaction is exactly what's to be expected from such disgusting act. Renewed determination, added motivation for the troops, the nation rallying behind the government even more.

    So on the other hand everyone can see that from the tactical/propaganda point of view there is a lot to be gained from such terrible news.

    Notice how several news organisations- including Rupert Murdoch's Sky, are still writing up the word 'execution' with quotation marks- i.e. unconfirmed claim. Because at the end of the day all we have is the word of the Prime Minister, who together with Bush spent a good time of Wednesday conference making remarks such as "if anyone had any doubts about the brutality of Saddam..." and so on. And I must say that if claims are based in the grainy Al-Jazeera pictures broadcast, his case is less than rock solid. But we will have to "trust him on this", just like we've been asked to trust him and Bush on other things.

    As for market missile strike, I believe it was indeed cause by an allied missile that went off course. Not because what the Iraqis might say, because they cannot be trusted with the truth any more than the other side, but because it was rather obvious that the explosion had been caused by an extremely powerful device impacting at high speed from above rather than a planted device or a 'faulty' Iraqi AAA battery. But funny how on the one hand the US are still not admitting it was them, preferring to say they'll never know until the examine the area, and on the other we know categorically that those two soldiers were executed from piss-poor TV images.

    Like I said, neither I'm defending the Iraqis nor I care if their "reputation" is tainted. They established murderers already. But I don't like the vibes around this incident, with people effectively saying "let's abandon the Geneva Convention and fuck up those evil Iraqis good!" Which of course would put us on the same level as them, and all for an incident that might well be untrue.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    A follow-up from today's Mirror.

    If this proves to be a lie from Mr. Blair...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    You dont think that the army might have been doing the right thing and telling the family of the dead soldiers that there son died well rather than died with a bullet to the back of his head in a puddle of his own fucking piss?

    Theyve been doing it for the entire modern history of war. Its called compassion.

    The army were more than likely trying to do the right thing by the family but the footage and annoucement by the PM fucked that right up.

    I hope to god that it was the naive sister who went to the press about this because if the mirror approached her, it will be a dark day for our media :mad:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Murph the Surf
    Tony Blair today said the Iraqis executed two British soldiers. Is anyone here going to make the charge that the UK treats it's prisoners in this fashion!:mad: :impissed:

    I hope that their deaths are avenged! I think the Iraqis will rue the day they committed this horror! I am sure that the Royal Marines and the rest of the lads will set things right.

    Avenge who?

    The people who actually did it? Not much chance..

    I assume you wish revenge on the Iraqi people or the Iraqi army as a collective.

    This is deeply flawed thinking.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    From Sky News:
    "Although admitting there was not conclusive proof how the pair died, Prime Minister Tony Blair's official spokesman insisted the premier had been right to say the two Royal Engineer bomb disposal experts had been executed."

    I'm sorry this looks fishier by the minute. :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Best to reserve judgement I think........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I don't believe it was an American missle. I believe it came from Iraq....and maybe deliberately.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    But the Iraqis haven't even launched their airforce have they.

    it came form a plane, surely we would know If Iraq had launched any planes?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No TB, It was shot. It could have been launched nearby. The Iraqis put all of their missles in civilian areas...near mosques etc. and one site was near that market.

    If it was an American missle...again it was Saddam's fault for mixing in his missles near civilian areas. But America would know by now so I think it was theirs. Also, many Iraqis left the capital...if you decide to stay in a combat zone...that's your decision....or maybe the one's who stayed are in with Saddam.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No doubt the inhabitants of Hiroshima had also only themselves to blame for their deaths for being Japanese and not swimming across the sea to safety while they could... :rolleyes:
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No doubt the inhabitants of Hiroshima had also only themselves to blame for their deaths for being Japanese and not swimming across the sea to safety while they could...

    No. They had their country to blame. Their leaders at the time called for mass suicides if Japan was invaded. As it is, that bomb saved over 200,000 American and Australian service people's lives.

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    So in the case of Baghdad... is it the Iraqi people killed at the market who are at fault because they did not abandon the city en masse to make life easier for the B52s? Or is it the regime itself for not surrendering unconditionally?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Why do you identify with Saddam? You're defending him all over the board.

    Yes civilians should leave Baghdad....although they'd probably be shot by Saddam's buddies.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    As always you fail to comprehend that this is not an either / or situation. Opposing Bush and his lies which have long been exposed as well as the further hypocrisies and reversals that occur as the conflict drags on longer than they had their supporters convinced at the start that it would, does not preclude despising Saddam.

    However, unless you subscribe to the notion that we should wage war on every last nation with a heinous dictatorial regime (which would ultimately be a return to world war) then singling out this half baked despot as somehow unique only shows your own hypocrisy and lack of comprehension for world affairs.

    That Saddam is singled out by Bush and co comes down to the assets that we want to seize, the corporate profit being made (and yet to be made), and the geo-political agenda of Israel to create a zone of absolute control in the Middle East paid for in American and British blood.

    Maybe you think that signifies just aggression, but I do not.

    Bring our boys home and throw Bush and his cronies out of office before they lead us all into a world of lawlessness and unrestrained terrorism.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Don't forget to read the Bush Doctrine Clandestine. You'll find it interesting. And it DOESNOT build up Bush. It's a blueprint for World War Three.

    In fact, North Korea is right. If a diplomatic solution isn't reached...the US will be at war with them....if I read the Bush Doctrine right. And I think I did. :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Let me put it in another way. Imagine- far fetched as it is- that America is invaded by another country that perceives the US government as evil and wants a regime change. The invaders make it clear that they will bomb whatever targets they deem legitimate until they are victorious. They target Washington DC as the capital city and government HQ. They try to bomb government offices only but a few bombs go astray and killed innocent civilians.

    Who would you blame for those deaths? The invading country, the US government or the civilians who refused to leave Washington DC?

    Straight answer please.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Oh I agree with that Aladdin.

    But, :D

    I'm just saying if an army is coming...I'd get the frig out of the way. And I'm not pro-war. I'm surprised 22 year old's look young to me. (I'm afraid to go up against them on the park playground.) Being a soldier is alternately boring or disgusting and tragic from what I've seen.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Did you read about the father of one of the killed US soldiers (Killed by friendly fire I think) saying that his son had not joined the army to fight but because it was a good career moove and he was going to leave in a matter of months anyway....Should peole be joining up for these reasons, and should we have any sympathy for them when they end up having to fight in a war where they may get killed?

    How stupid would you have to be to join the army with out any expectation that tyou may have to shoot someone or be shot at???
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think a majority of people join either because they feel it's their patriotic duty or because they see the Army as a good career. Undoubtedly there are a few who join so they can get to shoot people, and I don’t care that much what might happen to them. But the majority joins for noble causes, and each dead soldier is a tragedy.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ever so glad I talked my nephew out of joining up for college money or he'd be there now too.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Clandestine that is sooo true. And when you think of it...think of all the reservists who did that just for extra money and now are going over there...or checking bags for bombs over here.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Clandestine that is sooo true. And when you think of it...think of all the reservists who did that just for extra money and now are going over there...or checking bags for bombs over here.

    For extra money you get shop work. You dont join the army.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In rhw US, Lacy, youd be surprised by the number who join for the college tuition payment programs or certain specialised fields of technical training.

    Note that a good many commercial airline pilots were formerly US Air force pilots.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    No one has been allowed inside the camp so its all made up... I know they gave them prayer mats, food in keeping with the Muslim religion, and direction as to which way Mecca was.
    If no one has been inside the camp, then how do you know that they give them prayer mats, food in keeping, etc.? Or are you believing the government without stopping to question again? We've told you about this...:impissed::no:
    Originally posted by Balddog
    My rubbish comment was directed toward his stupid assumptions about the US troops..
    In another thread you agreed with me about a similar comment, that the soldiers were over-enthusiastic, and out to kill (re. Iraqi flag). At least some of these troops will be out to kill as many Iraqis as possible.
    Originally posted by Balddog
    Finding it increasingly difficult to keep my faith in the geneva conventions..
    America has totally ignored many international laws, including the Geneva convention, UN resoloutions (debatably), and (shock, horror) chemical and biological weapons laws. Other laws it just doesn't bother with (eg Kyoto)
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Why do you identify with Saddam? You're defending him all over the board.
    Every person is entitled to a defense, even Saddam. More to the point, we're not 'defending' him, we're pointing out problems with our regemes and the handling of this war. If you're not going to try to see the other point of view, what's the point in even being here?
    Yes civilians should leave Baghdad....although they'd probably be shot by Saddam's buddies.
    Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they would have to leave all their belongings behind. Maybe they would be shot at. Maybe they have a sentimental attachment to their home. Should we kill them because they don't want to leave their homes?
    Originally posted by byny
    How stupid would you have to be to join the army with out any expectation that tyou may have to shoot someone or be shot at???
    Assuming no war, joining the army is a very good career move. It looks good on your CV, it has good pay, you stay fit, you get to go on holiday for free (my dad used to be in the army and went on training to Cyprus regularly), and you get a good pension at the end. The only problem is that you may have to end up shooting or being shot at. Although some regements are far less likly to be at the front line than others anyway...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Me_and
    IfIn another thread you agreed with me about a similar comment, that the soldiers were over-enthusiastic, and out to kill (re. Iraqi flag). At least some of these troops will be out to kill as many Iraqis as possible.

    I never said they were 'out to kill'..I said they were overenthusiastic which explains the flag being raised...That is a fucking far cry from this..
    just out to kill some Iraqi muslim b*stards. Torturing them might be just revenge for all the millions of lives that they have obviously had a hand in the killing of, since they're Iraqi and muslim!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Pj: I read that eyewitnesses said they had seen planes overhead when the market plave was bombed.........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Toadborg, Saddam had his guy in charge of the troops that shoot their missles killed this weekend because the missles weren't accurate. Don't know if that was in response to the market or Kuwaiti mall bombing.
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