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When you hear they're parading British POW's on t.v.

Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
It's easy, and right in some ways, to be furious at the Iraqis acting like animals and parading British dead soldiers and POWs on t.v.. So here's a fact that might help ensure we don't carry our anger over to all Arabs or all Muslims: 15,000 Muslim Americans are fighting in Iraq right now. Also, many of the unbelievably brave special ops troops in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq are also Arab Americans and Muslims. They are the ones who can infiltrate a country and find Al Qaeda and in the case of Saddam, they knew where he and his perverted sons were going to wait out the bombing of Baghdad. It's good to keep that stuff in mind too...and then hate the Iraqis. And let me tell you something you already know: no one would consider Saddam and sons good Muslims. :D
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Comments

  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    In the newspaper today i have seen pictures of dead Iraqi's and of a British soldier smiling as he points a gun at the head of an Iarqi POW...........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Not to mention the hundreds of hours of footage from Guantanamo Bay...
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I dont think many people in this forum would need that info to convince them not to carry their anger to all arabs/muslims..Only the incredibly ignorant would think such a thing.

    15,000 muslim americans? That sounds an awful lot, where did you get that number?

    Toadborg, which paper was that in?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Muslim American Association. It sounds like a lot and it is, but don't forget the US has 300,00 troops involved in the Iraq war.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The Guardian :rolleyes: :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Havent been able to get to the papershop today so i dont have it...Was the photo captioned?

    It could be totally innocent, the POW could have made a joke even...but i spose it sounds better if the troops are made out to be bloodthirsty psychos so any context wont be mentioned :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Havent been able to get to the papershop today so i dont have it...Was the photo captioned?

    It could be totally innocent, the POW could have made a joke even...but i spose it sounds better if the troops are made out to be bloodthirsty psychos so any context wont be mentioned :)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    from Guantanamo Bay

    See that's where I think the liberals are spinning the truth. That's a military base closed to the public. Amnesty International and everyone else has no idea what's going on in there. One thing that works against some kind of torture scenario: many of our special ops people were brought there as prisoners. So if they turned people to our side...I'd say they weren't tortured. Also torture is illegal and works to get misinformation from people.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    The caption is simply 'British soldier with Iraqi captive on the outskirts of Basra'

    It is not anything really bad it is just an Iraqi soldier looking rather frightened and the Brit pointing his gun to his neck area and forcing his head down, and he has a grin on his face.

    Nothing too bad but when Pj is talking about iraqi's acting like animals it seems a bit extreme when this kind of stuff, which could be seen as inappropriate is all over the westsern media........
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think you and Aladdin totally missed the point of pnjs post but thats an aside :)

    battlefield footage of spontaneous surrender is a different kettle of fish to a state engineered television program..

    PS, yes i know about guantanamo and believe that to be a breach of the geneva convention but as the US has already totally ignored the geneva convention with regard to guantanamo, its not worth me commenting on :(
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    BBC is state controlled, could it be argued that their images are propaganda (Yes I am being pedantic but the definitions are blurred)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by Toadborg
    BBC is state controlled, could it be argued that their images are propaganda (Yes I am being pedantic but the definitions are blurred)

    I didnt mentioned state controlled...I said television program..The POWs were not in the field, they had been taken into custody by the Iraqis and moved to a secure site. They had then been filmed.

    The dead bodies arent covered by geneva conventions.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Yes I know your right, just trying to drag all the points out.

    Could you say that most of our footage is though state engineered because the journalists are embedded?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    No, not unless the soldiers arranged for the Iraqis to surrender at a specific time and place and directed the media to film it. It was spontaneous footage.

    If the US starts filming them like they did with the guantanamo bay prisoners, then i will believe them to be in breach of the geneva convention..
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Sounds fair enough to me.........:)
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    Also torture is illegal...
    Hasn't stopped America before...
    ...and works to get misinformation from people.
    Not necessarily true. I know you know something, and I know you won't tell me. So I torture you. Then you'll tell me, even if it's just so I'll kill you quickly.
    Who said they want information anyway? Based on what we've seen of the troops already (tearing down Iraqi flag to replace it with American, etc), they're all a bit trigger happy and just out to kill some Iraqi muslim b*stards. Torturing them might be just revenge for all the millions of lives that they have obviously had a hand in the killing of, since they're Iraqi and muslim!
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    I think the idea is that if you are torturing someone then they will say anything to make you stop ie what could be false information....
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :lol::lol:

    Absolute rubbish.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Absolute rubbish.

    That's it. I'm in love. I love you Balddog.
    Americans don't torture people. K- maybe making America listen to Rumsfield's speeches...but that's it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Absolute rubbish.

    That's it. I'm in love. I love you Balddog.
    Americans don't torture people. K- maybe making America listen to Rumsfield's speeches...but that's it.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    hehe sorry mate I think you might not like me after i reply...

    My rubbish comment was directed toward his stupid assumptions about the US troops..

    The US does torture POWs, just as every other nation who takes them. The only difference is the methods. The US is mainly psychological and drugs whereas Iraq use slightly more physical methods.

    Also, the Iraqis are more likely to torture the POWs as a matter of course whereas the US will only torture those that have info.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    and remember that the supreme court have decided that the prisoners held [illegially in my opinion] in gitmo have NO RIGHTS, and are not classed as prisoners of war under the geneva convention, well according to the US anyway

    this measn that they CAN be legally tortured, as they have no basic rights. this can take, quite easily, the form of sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, etc - it doesn't need to be physical

    and 6 of them are british citizens
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    this measn that they CAN be legally tortured, as they have no basic rights. this can take, quite easily, the form of sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, etc - it doesn't need to be physical

    But keep two things in mind. Many of our special ops comes from former prisoners of gitmo. They are now fighting for us in Yemen, Pakistan and now Iraq. No one has been allowed inside the camp so its all made up...including Amnesty International. I know they gave them prayer mats, food in keeping with the Muslim religion, and direction as to which way Mecca was. My point is, the US was smarter than someone who just tortures people. They treated them o.k. and many turned against Al Qaeda. They are the reason we're catching Al Qaeda's big wigs.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    pnj, two prisoners died a few days ago in American custody as a result of complications from the "treatment" they were receiving. It was all over the news and the US government itself acknowledged the incident. If you do a search or two you will find it. In fact somebody posted a link in here, it's only a few threads down. Look it up.

    I'm sorry if you idealistic and well-meaning beliefs about the impeccable behaviour of the US security agencies/military get shattered. You shouldn't believe blindly that your country would never do something that is illegal. It has in the past and it will do it again, just as every other country has.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Ive just seen stills of the executed British POWs taken from the film that Al-Jazeera aired..

    Finding it increasingly difficult to keep my faith in the geneva conventions..

    Surely the Iraqi authorities realise that executing POWs is the worst possible action they can take? Surely they realise that if they continue, the gloves will come off?
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Baldy, the gloves should have never been put on.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Baldy, the gloves should have never been put on

    OMG The man has stolen my brain. :crazyeyes
    I agree again.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Al-Jazeera must stop parading PoWs and bodies. It is disgusting at best and in breach of the Geneva Convention. Western television channels have been doing a similar job, but at least they don't take prisoners to makeshift studios and stuff a camera on their faces.

    Back to the executed men, I've been having a look at several news sources and it would seem that the only evidence there is of an execution is the word of Tony Blair and the British government. The Iraqis categorically deny it and as far as I've seen there have been no witness statements or word from the surviving British soldiers to corroborate this. When Blair was asked what made him say the men had been executed instead of killed in combat he simply responded "because of the circumstances we know".

    I'm not saying that the Iraqis are not capable of such a thing- they are. But it might also be propaganda leaked to the press by the MoD or the US army, as it has happened with the supposed desertion of Taziz (sp?), the entire 8,000-strong Iraqi division surrender or the "revolt against Saddam", all of which turned up to be not the truth.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    :sighs:

    Have you seen the pictures Aladdin? Have you seen pictures of other executions? Wait until the families of the men have been properly given time to prepare and the images will show up and be analysed in public by medical experts.

    The burns and blood pattern are quite different when someone gets shot from a distance and when someone is executed with a pistol to the head.

    There would be no witness statements from british soldiers, the men were captured and taken elsewhere.
  • Former MemberFormer Member Posts: 1,876,324 The Mix Honorary Guru
    Re: When you hear they're parading British POW's on t.v.
    Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
    It's easy, and right in some ways, to be furious at the Iraqis acting like animals and parading British dead soldiers and POWs on t.v.. So here's a fact that might help ensure we don't carry our anger over to all Arabs or all Muslims: 15,000 Muslim Americans are fighting in Iraq right now. Also, many of the unbelievably brave special ops troops in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan and Iraq are also Arab Americans and Muslims. They are the ones who can infiltrate a country and find Al Qaeda and in the case of Saddam, they knew where he and his perverted sons were going to wait out the bombing of Baghdad. It's good to keep that stuff in mind too...and then hate the Iraqis. And let me tell you something you already know: no one would consider Saddam and sons good Muslims. :D

    You may find it surprising but most sane educated people wouldn't get confused about this issue. most people don't need telling that one bad Iraqi doesn't mean all muslims are the devil..
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