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Switzerland & The Perfect Example ~ Guns! No.2
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
for some reason the old topic is closed for posting. I couldn't resist and open a new one as some posts made me to jump from chair.
I can maybe agree into certain extent with opinion that US guns laws are maybe to liberal (open). But I have to strongly disagree with anybody who opposes right to posses and bear weapon at all.
Criminal ANYWHERE in the world who is willing to get gun will get one. That is a fact.
What you gonna do when he decides to use one against you or your family. How you gonna protect your basic right- right to live?
Don't close your eyes. Regardless where are you living, there were, are and will be bad guys who just dont get on with the program.
Last week I was in very good decent club in Prague, type of place you would never expect anything to happen. They were closing and bouncers asked some russian-speaking dudes to leave. They wanted to keep drinking and beat up one bouncer and ran away out of the place. Another guy ran out to note their license plate. He got shot in the back twice!!
There is more homicides in the Czech Republic with kitchen knife than with a gun.
Anybody who passes physical, psychological, handling and shooting tests and never was convicted of crime can get his license. Still for some cops it's too much. They are maybe thinking that unarmed population is easier to control, I dont know, but it goes against any logic you might think of.
It is giving out all advantages to criminals, because they do not usually get license for a gun and buy one in the shop to murder somebody!
It is just discrimination of decent and modest people.
I can maybe agree into certain extent with opinion that US guns laws are maybe to liberal (open). But I have to strongly disagree with anybody who opposes right to posses and bear weapon at all.
Criminal ANYWHERE in the world who is willing to get gun will get one. That is a fact.
What you gonna do when he decides to use one against you or your family. How you gonna protect your basic right- right to live?
Don't close your eyes. Regardless where are you living, there were, are and will be bad guys who just dont get on with the program.
Last week I was in very good decent club in Prague, type of place you would never expect anything to happen. They were closing and bouncers asked some russian-speaking dudes to leave. They wanted to keep drinking and beat up one bouncer and ran away out of the place. Another guy ran out to note their license plate. He got shot in the back twice!!
There is more homicides in the Czech Republic with kitchen knife than with a gun.
Anybody who passes physical, psychological, handling and shooting tests and never was convicted of crime can get his license. Still for some cops it's too much. They are maybe thinking that unarmed population is easier to control, I dont know, but it goes against any logic you might think of.
It is giving out all advantages to criminals, because they do not usually get license for a gun and buy one in the shop to murder somebody!
It is just discrimination of decent and modest people.
0
Comments
The US Constitution give all Americans the right to bear arms. That's it. That's all that needs to be said. US citizens are entitled to bear weapons, and use them as they see fit.
Now, I don't think that I necessarily agree with that, because I think that Thanatos is right to some extent. A gun is only useful if you know how to use it. Thanatos is evidently a couple of things.
Firstly, he's an exemplary patriot. He is (or was, not sure, sorry) a US Marine. They are tough, they are intelligent, and have more courage than most people. They have the skill, the training and the intelligence to be able to choose to, select, and utilise a weapon effectively.
Secondly, he agrees with this right to bear arms. Fine. Good for him. If he wants to do that, then I have no problem with it. He knows EXACTLY what he is doing.
Thirdly, he wants to teach his kids that. Ok by me.
I think the point that people are missing is that gun culture in inherent in the USA. The reason that it makes headlines in the UK is that it is rare for innocents to be caught up in it. Now, to be honest, if drug dealers want to shoot each other, I have no problem. Whatever. If criminals want to kill each other, then they are very welcome to do so.
The problem comes when innocent people are caught up in this.
Ask Thanatos. What's the motto of the US Marine Corps? Semper fidelis. Always true. True to what, exactly? Well, God, the Constitution and yourself. True to what you are and want to be.
I think that a lot of people in the US have guns who shouldn't. I don't think Thanatos is one of them. Obviously, he knows what he is doing. Ask him how he feels about innocent people being killed. (I'm not talking about for the greater good, btw). I don't think he'll like it.
Yes. There are maniacs who shouldn't have guns in the US. Probably quite a few. But they're not all.
Incidentally, I'm from the UK. And I enjoy shooting as a recreational hobby with a club at uni.
To pound in your point from another viewpoint.
The cops in America are there to enforce law. Thats` it. They are not there to protect anybody.
They can only enforce laws, meaning if you break the law, THEN they will come and deal with you.
If the arguement is to be made aboot if there are no guns, then criminals will nothave access to them either. That`s Bail sh*t. Criminals will use their fists against the weak and elderly if that`s what they choose. An old widow that lives on a farm that her family was raised in and living the rest of her days, cannot fend of a young man bent on harm. She can do so with the guns that her husband always tinkered with and casualy showed her how to use.
Large difference of geological make up between Europe and America that lends to an self reliant type of person.
In America there are vast areas that have little to no people. Deserts, forests, rolling fields, lots of places that cops are not just hanging aboot waiting to protect you. No, we are a violent society and
..........and we are a nation born of violence.
A weapon in the hands of a trained individual is a great equaliser.
If someone like Mike Tyson pulls up in your kitchen with a mouthful of hurt, how long will the cops take to 'protect' you? How long do Mike Tysons typical fights last? (The ones in the ring not bedrooms)
We as a nation didnt like Brits laws and left that corporation. Oh, they didnt like it, but out to sea they went.
Of the 14 country`s Ive had the pleasure of visiting for more than a day, the most violent towards me was Jolly Ole England, seems it`s hard to have a beer in a pub or see a soccer match without having to dance in someones kitchen.
I`ve been perforated by thugs, soldiers and clubbed by cops. I like having the option of using, playing with, competing with, just havin along for the ride.............a gun
Mornin', Ranger Tricky. Nice ta see yer on troll patrol rather than in formation... <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">
Apparently, there are MANY here who find it morally superior to be a willing victim than to lower themselves to the base level of defending themselves. They are the chattels of others, bred and domesticated to NOT resist violence, but to call out to "mommie" when the boogie-man comes. They are BRED to have the victim mindset, and their instinct to self-preservation has been bred OUT of them.
Can't blame a sheep for being a sheep... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
I mean... Why do you THINK the UK is no longer a force in the world? Comes from the mindset of the populace. They see us us heathen barbarians, we see them as cowardly sheep... Then the issue that they are jealous of the power we wield in the world, and the fact that most of the world could EASILY be foreclosed by us, because of the debts they refuse to repay.
Personally, I have a "live and let live" attitude, and I really don't CARE what a person does with their life, nor how pathetic it is, until it affects me. If they expect ME to support them, defend them, protect them - because they refuse to do it for themselves - well... ANOTHER delusion bites the dust. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Beings that they are CHATTELS, the idea of fending for themselves gets them all INSECURE! "Massah" gonna protect them! <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0"> Like the slaves afraid to leave the plantation after the "War of Northern Aggression", the sheep don't know HOW to protect themselves... AGAIN, it has been bred out of them. <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
It makes headlines anywhere, maybe apart from some latin american countries.
Probably varies from state to state, but if my information is right, in most of them you do not need to take any psychological test or firearms theory and handling exams.
This, BMO, creates some extra potential to misusing guns by persons who shouldn't be bearing them (ppl with psychological diseases, disorders or folks who are not able to proove that they can handle the weapon properly etc.)
It is not about "animals are equal to each other, but some are more", but about protecting rest of population from much more riskier or unpredictable behaviour of certain individuals.
Again, this is my personal opinion and I am not going to convince anybody with gun to agree with me <IMG alt="image" SRC="smile.gif" border="0">
I can sign this.
huh? isn't NYPD motto "To serve and protect"?
thenatos,
well said about taking care of others destiny...
my philosophy is very similar. I give a big fuck about anybodys actions, may everyone enjoy his freedom unless it does not interfere with freedom of others. That is where democracy ends.
Or how my favorite Horace puts it:
Culpam poena premit comes.
Punishment closely follows crime as its companion.
We call it "to prosecute and skewer". Remember Rodney king? Rodney only got his encounter put on tape and sold to the media for a few bucks. I`ve seen, real close like, just party goers getting clubbed and prodded.
Please dont believe the LAPD has an easy job and just goes around preventing crime. They react to it. After a time they treat everyone as an 'outsider' that is not on their side of the blue line.
The Sheriff dept in LA County has ALL of their new recruits spend the first 3 years of their carrer in the Calif Prison system, just to toughen them up for whats out on the streets. No My Abn friend they protect only those with money, lots and lots of money.
Thus the laws or lack thereof of requirements to own a rifle or handgun.
It is in our Constitution and if a man cant read or take a written exam, should he not be able to defend his home and family?
If a man is deemed a domestic partner abuser (or woman) they loose their rights to own a gun. (cops too).
I dont want to have a psych eval by someone you is goinng to "label" me if I am not to his way of thinking. Laws get perverted big time by our lawyers until they are no longer serving the intended purpose of why it ever came to be.
Again, who is going to sit in judgment of me and deny my right to defend myself and family.
That is the entire reason it is a "right" and not a priviledge lent to me.
Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
ACTUALLY, ta be ACCURATE, ah prefers "injection therapist"... more closely dovetails with the MOS... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> and, yer RIGHT, ah IS bein' the nicest ah kin be, considerin' all the bleatin' sheep contributin' ta the fecal flow... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
Reality is a very, very scary thing for them who prefer the delusions to which they deliver themselves via an excess of Mary Jane experience... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> and then BOAST of it. <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> And they THEN wish to be thought capable of cogent thought? lmfao!
US Supreme Court has CONSISTENTLY ruled that the police forces within THIS nation have absolutely NO responsibility to the safety of the citizenry... ONLY to the apprehension of suspected criminals and their {hopefully} delivery to the judicial system. A person screaming in your face that he is going to kill you is NOT a crime, but within his "right" to free expression. Police have NO power to charge him with ANYTHING until he has actually made the attempt (successfully, or otherwise) to murder you. "Protect and Serve" is the product of a well paid ad agency, not correlating to reality... <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
HEY! I RESENT that! <IMG alt="image" SRC="mad.gif" border="0"> I show NO favoritism: I am HAPPY to insult them that DO agree with me! <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> Equal opportunity sarcasm! <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Jist ask "Tricky"! <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
The amount of gun crime is rising very very fast here in the UK, most weeks there are shootings. The amount of legally owned guns is falling, handguns are banned yet the criminals have them. Owners of legal guns don't use them to commit crime. The police are unable to protect themselves let alone the public.
I don't see why that as I was trusted with guns when I was in the army that I can't have them now.
I want a choice as to whether I own or carry a gun.
It's the person behind the gun that does the killing.
peacechild.
For the sake of argument let's say that I am your attacker and that there is a right to self defence, even to the point of killing one's assailant.
I jump you. I'm responsible for that.
You kill me by whatever means. You're teling me that you have no responsibility whatsoever for my death and the manner of it? You make a choice to hit, kick, grab, twist, whatever. You choose to act, and you choose how to act.
I am not seeking to remove responsibility from me (the 'attacker'), but to point out that you (the 'defender') also bear responsibility. It is a double-edged sword.
I am a pretty keen martial artist and some of the things I do could severely injure or kill. I take extreme care not to do so, though, not only because I don't want my friends hurt but because I would be responsible for injuring them, whether or not I was notionally the 'attacker' or the 'defender.'
BTW, cousins...please keep in mind the time differences between all of us. Often you post something and have to wait for many long hours for a response...not ignoreing you, just sleeping or working, etc.
I don't know whether this site suffers from bandwidth problems but expect it to be so...some threads going WAY too long just suck it up for the rest...consider doing what some of US do...when you reach a five page limit someone restarts the thread anew...you don't have to shut the old one down but that is sometimes done here.
Diesel
88888888
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25997
<IMG alt="image" src="http://www.marshall-es.marshall.K12.tn.us/jobe/Read-Write/dinosaur/t-rex.gif">
<IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
I was born into, and STILL live in a world in which the concept of responsibility and accountability of self are functioning concepts. I grew up in a world that if you walked into a man's home uninvited, you had just committed suicide, because that man was JUSTIFIED in doing WHATEVER came next, and it did not matter if the door was locked and barred, or swinging in the wind.
YOU, the perpetrator, ARE accountable for the choices that you make in this world, AND whatever comes from your choices. Can't blame your life on your mommie and daddie; can't blame your becoming a traitor and joining a rogue "army" to commit war upon your nation on your daddie's gender confusion. YOU bear the responsibility AND consequences for your choices and actions.
Playing with your friends is NOT the same as attacking someone from behind. Yes, in times past, I have "rough-housed" with FRIENDS, and constraints were understood. Don't do it anymore, because people can EASILY be hurt.
Attacking someone from behind, or attacking someone in ANY scenario is not playtime, but the prime time real deal, and what you will get if you make the choice of attacking me is REAL TIME, FULL SPEED.
I am not some "touchie feelie" pathetic liberal who wants to return "love, understanding, and sympathy" to the punks who will not own up to their responsibility and accountability. You come at me, from ANY angle, and my defense will not slow until you have stopped moving, OR breathing, depending upon the nature of the attack. You attack me from behind, and you WILL likely be dead, AND THE CHOICE WAS YOURS!!!
On a larger scale, during the Revolutionary War, the rebelion which ended British rule over the colonies which became the US, if those commiting sedition and TREASON against their sovereign had not pulled it off, they would have been executed. RESPONSIBILITY FOR ACTIONS! Same damned concept, and fully and clearly understood by both sides! You you initiate the act, you had DAMNED well better be good enough to pull it off! If you don't/aren't... YOU DIE!
It is pathetic liberals, gutless sheep who would bear the responsibility for the choices that others make. MEN accept responsibility for THEMSELVES, not try to lay the blame ANYWHERE else.
If THAT isn't clear, then you need to get your head from the anatomically inappropriate place where you have deposited it so that it might be touched by the light of day! ...or, get a Plexi-otomy. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
{editted because I am rushing to get to work... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> }
[ 12-01-2002: Message edited by: Thanatos...AGAIN ]
Unfortunately, the mental poluton of servatude has crept back into US and must now be dealt with...folks better hope the economey doesn't go bust over what the liberals set up because there would then be no stops or controls and US would be one big blood bath...Humm...maybe; O' never mind!
(I don't want to scare the sheeple too much!) That's your job!
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
If reponsibility only came with morally reprehensible acts, well... You ever get a good conduct medals or letters of commendtion in the USMC? If the good marine concerned weren't responsible for his actions such an award would be pointless.
Yes, responsibility exists and cannot be shifted, should not be dodged. But it exists for all actions, not just the bad ones.
(Is this a good time to point out that I'd probably be prepared to use force - even lethal force - in such situations? Especially if I were with others, rather than just defending myself. Granted, I wouldn't have a gun as you do, but I'd damn well do my best if it came to that.)
you have a duty to defend yourself!
The duty may be only to yourself, nonetheless it is there.
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Anyway...
Surely this is the point that Mac is trying to make. The fact that you, whilst defending yourself, choose to kill means that you must take some responsibilty for that. The fact that the moron decided to attack you in the first place means that he should take some responsibilty. Each person taking responsibility for his own actions. Not too difficult to understand is it?
Personally, as I said when you were first here (was this before you first or second ban? <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">), I would prefer gun control. But then I guess that the point of being free thinking, it means I can have my own opinion. You have you opinion, I have mine.
Anyway, just a small question, but judging by other threads I assume that you are a Christian - so how do you get past the 'Thou Shalt not kill' commandment? The ten commandments are pretty uneqivocal...
There are no degrees in self defense in the dark of night and you just woke up out of a sound sleep. Even on the street with one assailaint or more. No degrees, if you decide to alter my plans with thievery or violence in mind, the response will be swift and severe and I dont mind my 3 kids seeing that. They will learn that not one other human will tread on me or mine if we are trying to get by minding our own business.
criminals know this unwritten rule since the old west.
If one were to use less than lethal alternatives then that criminal will stew in one our fine gladiator academy`s, lifting weights, honing his fighting skill and thinking aboot the man that put him in jail. many dont understand that some will not cower and let them take our property and will think it is our fault for fighting back.
Man slaughter will get you as little as 10 years in someplace here (US). I dont want some monster looking for me our mine in 10 years. I would much rather him be a distant memory and be dead.
Killing someone bent on harming me is not a bad thing. Hurting someone bent on killing me is a bad thing. I want him dead, thank you very much.
This is the cultural difference between our 2 pieces of real estate. Live and let live and you`ll grow old, fat and sassy
However, I think that there is a higher duty than to your self, call it to God, call it to morals, call it what you like. Killing someone in cold blood is not acceptable. Self-defence is unlikely to stand as full and acquitting evidence. I wish you luck.
If everyone thought in this way, there would be a considerably higher death rate, no?
"Do no murder!"
The way of Zen covers it for me...keep your attention on what is going on.
The last 'christian' died on the cross...but I pray for protection from his followers!
Diesel
88888888
Just got home from work, and I see Diesel beat me to the answer.
For the record, although Diesel and I might have disparate religious beliefs - or the lack thereof - I am POSITIVE that Diesel and I respect each others right to the disparate perspective, and that individual perspective, WHATEVER it might be.
I HAVE taken many men's lives from them, yet I have NEVER commited "murder", and there IS a difference. The original message has been perverted as men attempt to manipulate the Word given from God to us... pervert it for their own nefarious agendas.
I have killed w/o rage, w/o anger. I am disciplined to maintain a focus, and function under EXTREME stress. Others who have walked that path (combat experience) might not react in the same way. FOR ME, to lose control of emotion is to lose control of the moment, and then the moment is lost. Others require the rage in order to kill. We ARE different creatures...
(btw ~ I have NEVER displayed what some might presume as anger on ANY forum, nor ANY post. IF you comprehend the previous paragraph, then you WILL understand... <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> )
If you commit to an offensive (preditory) act of violence, WHATEVER comes is the RESPONSIBILITY of the perpetraitor of the act, and HIS alone. The UK culture, and the US culture may very well differ in national perspective upon that issue, BUT... in MY country, if you attack me from behind, you WILL die, and I WILL walk away from the moment.
Ranger "Tricky's" statement as to the foolishness of leaving a living and brooding assailant is 100%! Preditors understand the reality, prey do not... <IMG alt="image" SRC="frown.gif" border="0">
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Death rate of miscreants? ... yes!
Ratio of miscreants to "victims"? ... YES!
Overall death rate? ROTFLMFAO! Go back to yer comic books, porn, drugs and delusions!
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Parris Island Preparatory School of Finer Social Etiqutte stressed FOCUS and MOTIVATION. Being focused and motivated beats being pissed off eleven times outta ten! <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
It appears that most yell, scream, and get physically demonstrative before they act. I get quiet, polite, and more self-contained. Why give the prey a warning?
Cold-blooded? Perhaps you should discuss deportment with a Python (or in Diesel's case, a Cottonmouth <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0"> )... probably give you a more rewarding moment than the same discusiion with me. <IMG alt="image" SRC="eek.gif" border="0">
Why get angry? Makes you lose your fine motor control. Makes you less aware of what is going on, and therefore an easier target yourself. Dogs growl; I smile... <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
What I said was intended as a joke. What you said was true. It is people like you who keep this world peaceful, by threatening calculated and decisive military action.
I was a cadet for a couple of years. I have understood one or two of your principles, but you exemplify military discipline.
Semper fi, sir!
OO-RAH!!! <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">