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Switzerland & The Perfect Example ~ Guns!
Former Member
Posts: 1,876,323 The Mix Honorary Guru
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1566000/1566715.stm
I'm posting this from your own papers...maybe some can learn from such a worthy example...maybe not.
Anyway, we have already broached some of this in our discussions and I found it interesting to see it appear in your press.
Diesel
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I'm posting this from your own papers...maybe some can learn from such a worthy example...maybe not.
Anyway, we have already broached some of this in our discussions and I found it interesting to see it appear in your press.
Diesel
88888888 <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
0
Comments
I'd also like to draw your attention to this little aside the reporter chose to throw in:
but the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept.
I'll admit, violent crime in this country IS small. Hell, I live in it's biggest city, where traditionally one would expect the most crime to occur, and not once have I run into trouble. I know a couple of friends who were held at knife-point...for their beer.
But for the most part, yes, Switzerland is an extremely safe country. But the sentence above does worry me. Because, like so often in Switzerland, the statistics are just a bit...erm...wrong.
The Economist reported (and I apologise, I can't seem to find the text itself) that there was a greater number of gun-related problems than reported by the media. There are many instances of a gun-problem occuring, and the agressor simply being brought down by police marksmen, covering-up the story with the help of the media. Now come on Diesel, surely this isn't what goes on in your Eutopia.
Switzerland, admittedly, has more or less mastered the art of gun control. By arming 2 million of its citizens, house crimes and the like are much less common.
But, as already stated in the BBC article, there are for more complex reasons for this. Maybe you have to live here to understand it, but, trying to be as nice as possible here, the Swiss have hardwired brains. The famous Swiss efficiency is a result of this, the fact that the traffic systems more-or-less work, the fact that a new bridge and tunnel system being built is ahead of schedule by 2 years, the fact that public transport runs on time...can all be attributed to their hardwired minds.
Swiss kids are brought up to reject individualism, evidenced, unfortunately, by teen fasion and lifestyles. I'm fully aware that teenagers the world over follow fashion in a similar way, but as a product of the eduction system, thinking for yourself is just out of order. Students are taught to NOT question the teacher, they learn by purely spitting out what the teacher puts into their mouths.
This mentality propagates itself throughout the population, and, as each new generation enters the workforce, this sheepish, hardwired mindset follows them.
Which is why, come time for these kiddlies to enter the army, handing them a gun isn't a problem. Because vast majority of people will, unquestioningly, leave the gun at home with all 24 rounds of ammunition sealed in.
Because they've never been taught to question the morals, the beliefs, the basic axioms that society is brought up on, Switzerland doesn't end up with dissidents, with those that have radically different views - political, relgious or whatever. It may be a free country, but social pressures in this place are unbelievable.
So Diesel, this is gonna cause a problem for you. You can have your guns, but you run the risk of losing your liberties, your freedoms, your right to think freely and the like. Or, you can live like you do now, with a substantial but by no means majority of the population owning firearms, incur high rates of violent crimem, but hey, you've got your freedoms.
Hope this makes some sort of sense. D
However, you miss the point. Britain and the USA are far more violent societies. giving guns to the public is asking for trouble, it's one thing have a riot, or football hooligans. Imagine if they were all armed? chaos.
Switzerland has no choice but to arm all its citizens anyway, it is in a precarious spot, surrounded by countries that are infinitely more powerful, the people need guns. We don't. We have nukes for that <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Protecting yourself is a human right, if practiced there is no crime...and that sums it up. The pc crowd has been at work in the old pirate kingdom doing the will of those with the 'holocaust' mentality and you are left at the mercy of lesser folk whos lives mean nothing to themselves, even less to me if it is me or mine they would brace!
After 911 gun sales in US rocketed and those who would 'disarm' their neighbors got in line for arms and munitions with or without instruction...because reality hit home.
Maybe Europe will get lucky one of these days and we will see Swiss expansionism replete with precision, productivity and responsibility for the restoration of Europe for Europeans!
Diesel
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Switzerland is a unique case. It is a situation that could never work in a country like Britain, and doesn't work in the USA.
Diesel
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prove it.
And besides, the only guns over here that are illegal are hand guns. You can stll get a licence for anything else!
Whowhere, The numbers speak for themselves. The most heavily regulated states have the highest crime rates. Think of the cities in the US you most associate with crime...LA, New York, Chicago, Washington(highest murder rate in US)...What do all those cities have in common? They are the places with the most restrictions on guns.
BTW Whowhere, not sure which laws youve been reading but handguns are most certainly not the only illegal guns here.
We can get licences for bolt/single action rifles, black powder weapons, shotguns with 3 shell capacity and semi auto .22 rifles.
We cannot get any semi-auto, auto or handguns. That rules out a lot of fun <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
I'm sorry. But that post was written with tongue in cheek.
I just get annoyed by Americans who claim that the right to bear arms will somehow create a utopic society where there is no crime because everyone has the right to carry a gun. Hogwash.
If we allowed freer access to firearms than we do at the moment in the UK, imagine the types of people that would head straight down to their local gun shop: the petty criminals that want to move into the big league, and the fanatics (Barry Bulsara types). Not the ordinary folk who want to protect themselves if attacked (the Tony Martins). They will only buy guns when the criminal world is so saturated that they have no choice. Urgh, I don't want to live in that society.
BTW, I think Turtle was absolutely right with what he said above. Switzerland is an exception to most rules. An armed & neutral country, compulsory TA-style national service for life, yet the country is full of rich bankers. A different society from America and therefore it is not fair to compare the use/ownership of guns between the two.
You do need a permit to cary a concealed weapon in the city...but it is a must issue law, you apply, they must issue.
It doesn't stop every problem...but it really keeps them in check...so, they are cuting back our police force a bit to economize and more people are geting permits.
As a consideration to your argument, most firearms are expensive...the average criminal won't plunk down $500 for an HK pistol...but plenty of people do...my sons have several of them. 9 mm, .40 & .45 calibers! Me, I still preffer the old p-35...Browning Hi-power in 9 mm.
Diesel
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PS< did you buy anything at the show? <IMG alt="image" SRC="biggrin.gif" border="0">
Of course I bought something...I always buy something. 1911 .45; some parts for the HK/91, FAL selector, optic plate for AKS-74UN, there was so much...passed on an L1Al for $450...now I'm sorry...walk in with bunch of extras...didn't need it but........!
Diesel
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Diesel is a pyscho, and I'm scared to think that most people in America share his warped mentality.
If guns were made legal, the only people who would buy them at first would be the petty criminals.
I can't imagine why crimes would go down, what would happen? A mugger pulls out a gun, only to have the victim to pull one out as well?
Plus you are forgetting about all the accidents that would happen. In the USA in 1995, more CHILDREN were i jured by handguns than adults, because they were messing around with them. Imagine all the massacres they've had over in the USA? Children who's minds are as warped as Diesel's, walking into schools and killing the people who rightly thought they were a bit of a freak. The USA is a fucked up country, all because they have the misguided belief that guns are the answer to every problem they can think of. Someone breaking in? Shoot them. SOmeone selling drugs? Shoot them. Little kid playing with my gun? Shoots himself.
Absolutely. I couldn't have put it better myself. And living in Notts I'm sure Whowhere knows a thing or two about gun-crime.
The meadows in Nottingham is the second place in the country where police have to carry guns when they patrol, I'm not sure where the first is, either London or Birmingham.
last year, before CCTV 2 gangs opened fire on each other in the city centre, killing several people. Explain to me, if you can Baldogg and Diesel, how equipping innocent people with guns would have prevented either of these 2 things? They wouldn't. What would have happened is that the people in the Meadows would take the law into their own hands, the police would try and stop them, result is a lot of dead people. Imagine if all the revellers in the city centre had guns, they'd try and defend themselves, probably taking out a few innocent people as well.
Nottingham is turning into a scary place to live, for any type of violent crime, not just guns. Even though I live here I can't see how my carrying a gun would help.
Firstly, hes not a psycho and secondly most people in the US do not share his views.
If you have a criminal record you cannot legally own a gun. Nobody, not even Diesel is advocating complete freedom of guns. In the US, convicted felons arent allowed to own guns. Thats a good thing. The first person who would buy guns if they were being legalised is the young woman who had been raped or the young mother whos child had been tortured and killed, or the man whos house had been broken into dozens of times.
YES..My God, I cant believe you just said that. Talk about a victim mentality. Dont you think you should be able to defend yourself? No doubt you will use the argument that the victim being armed will escalate the situation and force the mugger to use his gun...Well tell that to the girl who was robbed at gun point and shot AFTER she had handed over her phone. She may well be alive if she had a gun in her handbag.
I take it you have a source for that myth? Cars kill massively more children than guns, as do household items such as toothbrushes and televisions.
Tell me how many massacres they have had. Do you even know or are you just spouting more myths and bullshit?
No, they simply believe that guns are the answer to some things. Its us who have the misguided belief that we can exist in this world unarmed while the criminals are armed and dangerous.
Fine with me.
Keep on perpetuating that shit. It hardly ever happens. Maybe one in a million.
Dont be stupid man. Im sure Diesel, when armed, wouldnt go wading in and try and break up two armed gangs intent on shooting each other. He would just leave or get out of the way.
What he would be able to do is defend himself if some of those gangbangers turned their attention on him. Unlike the disarmed who would just sit there and get raped or killed.
Balddog, you can't 'fix' a death camp mentality...some folks just want to be victims and insist upon someone else being in control of their lives.
Firearms and their ownership are viewed as a duty by citizens...here and elsewhere. Like skiing, they are a dangerous fun sport...and I assure you, more people are hurt in US skiing than by firearms, accident or otherwise. Automobile accidents and related deaths are over the top for comparison.
Wimps who have weazeled their way into government for their own 'social' agenda are scared to death that citizens, armend citizens, will toss them and their bull shit policies out...so they foolishly think that they can disarm them...it always backfires, at least among folks who will not be subject slaves!
Diesel
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That's not really the point though is it? Not many people are mugged with toothbrushes. </STRONG>
Too many. </STRONG>
If we arm ourselves as a society just because some criminals are armed, then we are being led but criminals. That is no way to run a country. </STRONG>
He didn't 'keep on perpetuating that shit'. It was from the same post. It was you that separated it. So in that case, what would be the point in him having a gun then? How the hell is one man with a gun going to fight off an armed gang?? It's crazy to think that little old ladies with guns in their handbags would be able to fight off a mugger. It's not going to happen.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Kentish ]
Yes and they would be criminals and breaking the law. Therefore guns being illegal makes no difference whatsoever save to make sure their victims are unarmed and no threat.
I suggest you go to a gunstore in the USA and ask some of the customers. You will be surprised and proven wrong.
Ah I see, so being shot in the face before handing over her phone is more preferable to being shot in the face after handing over the phone? Sorry but you are making assumptions. If she had a gun in her handbag then she may well have been able to shoot him while she was taking the phone out.
I made that point in the context of accidents in the home. It was said that many kids are victims of accidents in the home. My toothbrush statement was exactly the point. Context is a great thing innit.
Yeah well, we have had 'too many'. I asked because people throw around these school massacre statements but they never know how many there have been.
So we should just stick our heads in the sand and pretend they werent there?
Same post but different point. If you mention the same point twice in a post then you are perpetuating it. Look up the word.
As I said in the following sentance which you have cut off, if they turned their attention on him he would have a chance of defending himself.
He might not be able to but at least he would have a chance. Unlike the unarmed guy cowering behind some bins just hoping the big nasty men dont kill him.
It happens every day. There were a couple of million documented crimes that didnt happen because the victim had a gun. Most times they didnt even need to fire the gun, just point it at the criminal and they would leg it.
These are all very widely documented facts here guys. This argument is very big in the US and all the facts are there for you to read. Please educate yourselves.
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Marmite ]
Nobody is talking about the complete freedom of anyone to get a gun, thats just silly talk. Guns should be legally available to any law abiding person of good character to use in defending their person.
The known facts prove otherwise. If you cant bring yourself to acknowledge the sworn testimonies of millions of US citizens who have used guns in their defence then you are a lost cause.
Armed policing is becoming more and more essential. Crime rates are soaring. More and more criminals are using guns. The police cant be expected to do their job unarmed in this day and age. You will see many more armed police on the streets in the coming years.
Sad but true.
Cranial supposity, eh? <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
I WAS a mugging "victim" when I was a teenager, both by knife, and by gun, in East Oakland, PRK. I was knifed when I was 16, and shot when I was 17. Has not happened SINCE! <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> What has changed? I do not walk around as a willing victim who believes that offering himself up as "easy pickings" puts him on a higher moral plane...
Police cannot protect you - they are charged with hunting down suspected criminals AFTER THE FACT. Responsibility for your own protection lies with YOU.
Do you walk around with your skivvies at half mast and a sign on your back begging "PLEASE BUGGER ME"? To be dis-armed BY CHOICE in a violent world is virtually the same thing... and no matter HOW you choose to prattle on, this IS a violent world.
The violent criminal is a coward, and takes the easier path. Rather than confront someone who is armed, they seek the more vulnerable target. In EVERY jurisdiction where concealed weapon permits have been granted (at large), the violent crime rates have dropped. Where manditory firearm ownership has been instituted, murder rates have ENDED! In Australia, where guns were outlawed, and then confiscated, violent crime is on a massive increase.
My son was around guns from the time he was two years old. He was shooting firearms at five, and fired an AK-47 when he was 7. He was taught responsibility, and has NEVBER had a firearms "accident" (and I used quotation marks because there are NO accidents, only INCOMPETENCE).
You espouse a belief that you are too stupid and too incompetent to run your own life, and require a wet nurse to take care of you. Perhaps you are right. <IMG alt="image" SRC="wink.gif" border="0">
Me? I carry a ParaOrdnance .45 on my hip (with 14 rounds in the magazine) 24/7. In my truck, there is an AK-47. Do I accost anyone who pisses me off? Not likely, because I have not been stripped of my RIGHTS, liberty, and privileges. HOWEVER, should YOU or anyone else attempt to dictate that I live "by your leave", I SHALL alter your moment and motivation... <IMG alt="image" SRC="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
There are some in this world who are MEN, and not sheep cowering in fear. IF they ever grow up, they MIGHT comprehend...
And Thanatos, I am not a sheep. I'm just not dumb enough to think my pulling a gun out on a would be assasin would do much good. Suppose there were 2 of them? One standing behind me? Ok, I might shoot one but that isn't going to stop the other one stabbing me in the spine causing me to be paralysed for the rest of my life?
And how many shots do you think the shit scared woman, about to be raped will be able to fire, before the rapist and his buddies smack her around the head with a bat? Even if he was on his own, we're automatically assuming that the woman, who's hands are probably shaking with fear manages to shoot him at all? Despite what the movies show, the only people who can survive an encounter like that are police and other government "officials" who are trained to overcome fear.
In every imaginable case, involving a would be killer and a gun, and a soon to be victim, the victim will come off worse. All that owning a gun will do is ensure that the criminal will get agitated a lot quicker and be more likely to shoot on reflex before thinking his/her actions out thoroughly.
Oh and Thanatos, do you think the reason why you haven't been attacked since you were 17, could be due to you being an adult? I don't understand how having a concealed weapon would put off an attacker, espcially if they don't know you have it in the first place.
We have access to knives at the moment but that doesn't mean ordinary members of the public carry knives in case they are attacked. I think you are exaggerating the amount of violent crime that actually affects the people you say should be allowed guns.
Perhaps you are letting your obvious love of guns cloud your judgement on this one.
I got my information from the good author Bill Bryson. as you are aware although he is humorous, when he quotes statistics he QUOTES them, he doesn't make them up. Oh and Diesel, Bill Bryson is American.
As for massacres, the Columbine High school one springs to mind as the most recent? Plus several others of distinct notoriety before that.
How many have we had? Umm 1.
Does her surviving mean anything? Do you really think that mugger though 'I know, Ill just shoot her in the head hoping I will get a glancing blow?' Of course not, he shot her in the head with the intention of killing her.
You can come up with any amount of situations where a gun will not help. I can also come up with any amount of situations where it will...Surely people should be given the choice?
Thats just laughable.
I suggest you look at how often the armed police are called out now compared to just 10 years ago.
My obvious love of guns? Surely if I were letting my love of guns affect my views on this then I wouldnt have said I wouldnt carry a gun even if I had the choice. Or did you miss that?
Whowhere,
Please provide a link to those numbers you just quoted. I notice you quoted total accidents rather than accidents involving children in the home, which was what you highlighted.
FYI
Deaths Due to Unintentional Injuries, 1998
Source: National Health Safety Council, <IMG alt="image" src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/christopher.storey/deaths.jpg">
The above table was compiled through the hard work of Guncite.com
Edited to fix table
[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Balddog ]
For your information, I have disrupted miscreant's plans, OUTSIDE of military service. Part of the responsibility of being a CITIZEN, rather than merely subject to the whim of your owner...
That's why you call yourself "subjects", right? You subject yourself to their whims?